Geisha Culture and Arts

Tao, 58-59, April 5, 2009

[07:03 AM]  Corwyn Allen: Does anyone recall where we ended last time?
[07:03 AM]  metta Botanical: One moment, Corywn and I will get that data for you
[07:03 AM]  Basil Brooks: verse 54?
[07:03 AM]  metta Botanical: I do the logs for Okasan
[07:03 AM]  Corwyn Allen: Ok
[07:03 AM]  Corwyn Allen: Hmmmm, she only gave me 56 - 60
[07:03 AM]  Corwyn Allen: Did we get through 55 last time?
[07:03 AM]  Corwyn Allen accepted your inventory offer.
[07:04 AM]  metta Botanical: that ws the last time, Corwyn
[07:04 AM]  metta Botanical: I will do the log this week also
[07:04 AM]  Corwyn Allen: Thank you Metta
[07:04 AM]  Corwyn Allen: So we last discussed 57
[07:04 AM]  Corwyn Allen: We'll start with 58 today
[07:04 AM]  metta Botanical smiles softly
[07:05 AM]  Corwyn Allen: Give me a moment to adjust my notecard reader
[07:05 AM]  Basil Brooks: sorry I guess i'm a bit behind
[07:05 AM]  Basil Brooks: ;-))))
[07:05 AM]  metta Botanical: yes, and did not meet last week because of the two year anniversary
[07:05 AM]  Jungleer Rush: ahh...58 is perfect for these times :)
[07:05 AM]  metta Botanical: it's ok, Basil, as I said, one of my functions here at Amatsu is I keep the logs for our Tao class so I am the one who has to be on track for it (myself and Okasan)
[07:06 AM]  -  Fifty Six - Virtuous Passivity
[07:06 AM]  - 
[07:06 AM]  -  A.
[07:06 AM]  -  Those who know do not talk.
[07:06 AM]  -  Thos who talk do not know.
[07:06 AM]  - 
[07:06 AM]  Basil Brooks: your work is much appreciated
[07:06 AM]  -  Keep your mouth closed.
[07:06 AM]  -  Guard your senses.
[07:06 AM]  -  Temper your sharpness.
[07:06 AM]  -  Simplify your problems.
[07:06 AM]  -  Mask your brightness.
[07:06 AM]  -  Be at one with the dust of the earth.
[07:06 AM]  -  This is primal union.
[07:06 AM]  - 
[07:06 AM]  -  He who has achieved this state
[07:06 AM]  -  Is unconcerned with friends and enemies,
[07:06 AM]  -  With good and harm, with honor and disgrace.
[07:06 AM]  -  This therefore is the highest state of man.
[07:06 AM]  -  ***********
[07:06 AM]  -  B
[07:06 AM]  -  Those who know don't talk.
[07:06 AM]  -  Those who talk don't know.
[07:06 AM]  - 
[07:06 AM]  -  Close your mouth,
[07:06 AM]  -  block off your senses,
[07:06 AM]  -  blunt your sharpness,
[07:06 AM]  -  untie your knots,
[07:06 AM]  -  soften your glare,
[07:06 AM]  -  Fifty Eight: Transformations According to Circumstances
[07:06 AM]  - 
[07:06 AM]  -  When the country is ruled with a light hand
[07:06 AM]  -  The people are simple.
[07:06 AM]  -  When the country is ruled with severity,
[07:06 AM]  -  The people are cunning.
[07:06 AM]  - 
[07:06 AM]  -  Happiness is rooted in misery.
[07:06 AM]  -  Misery lurks beneath happiness.
[07:06 AM]  -  Who know what the future holds?
[07:07 AM]  -  There is no honesty.
[07:07 AM]  -  Honesty becomes dishonest.
[07:07 AM]  -  Goodness becomes witchcraft.
[07:07 AM]  -  Man's bewitchment lasts for a long time.
[07:07 AM]  - 
[07:07 AM]  -  Therefore the sage is sharp but not cutting,
[07:07 AM]  -  Pointed but not piercing,
[07:07 AM]  -  Straghtforward but not unrestrained,
[07:07 AM]  -  Brilliant but not blinding.
[07:07 AM]  -  ********
[07:07 AM]  -  B
[07:07 AM]  -  If a country is governed with tolerance,
[07:07 AM]  -  the people are comfortable and honest.
[07:07 AM]  -  If a country is governed with repression,
[07:07 AM]  -  the people are depressed and crafty.
[07:07 AM]  - 
[07:07 AM]  Corwyn Allen: Ok, hold a minute
[07:07 AM]  Corwyn Allen: I think this card is messed up
[07:07 AM]  metta Botanical nods to Corwyn and says "thank you" to Basil, and is just glad she can contribute to Amatsu in some way
[07:08 AM]  Jungleer Rush smiles
[07:09 AM]  metta Botanical: I love coming to a place where there are always Hogosha around to guard us. It is a very welcome feeling to know we are safe when we are here.
[07:10 AM]  Jungleer Rush smiles
[07:10 AM]  Corwyn Allen: Ok, let's try this again shall we.
[07:10 AM]  -  Fifty Eight: Transformations According to Circumstances
[07:10 AM]  - 
[07:10 AM]  -  A
[07:10 AM]  -  When the country is ruled with a light hand
[07:10 AM]  -  The people are simple.
[07:10 AM]  -  When the country is ruled with severity,
[07:10 AM]  -  The people are cunning.
[07:10 AM]  - 
[07:10 AM]  -  Happiness is rooted in misery.
[07:10 AM]  -  Misery lurks beneath happiness.
[07:10 AM]  -  Who know what the future holds?
[07:10 AM]  -  There is no honesty.
[07:11 AM]  -  Honesty becomes dishonest.
[07:11 AM]  -  Goodness becomes witchcraft.
[07:11 AM]  -  Man's bewitchment lasts for a long time.
[07:11 AM]  - 
[07:11 AM]  -  Therefore the sage is sharp but not cutting,
[07:11 AM]  -  Pointed but not piercing,
[07:11 AM]  -  Straghtforward but not unrestrained,
[07:11 AM]  -  Brilliant but not blinding.
[07:11 AM]  -  ********
[07:11 AM]  -  B
[07:11 AM]  -  If a country is governed with tolerance,
[07:11 AM]  -  the people are comfortable and honest.
[07:11 AM]  -  If a country is governed with repression,
[07:11 AM]  -  the people are depressed and crafty.
[07:11 AM]  - 
[07:11 AM]  -  When the will to power is in charge,
[07:11 AM]  -  the higher the ideals, the lower the results.
[07:11 AM]  -  Try to make people happy,
[07:11 AM]  -  and you lay the groundwork for misery.
[07:11 AM]  -  Try to make people moral,
[07:11 AM]  -  and you lay the groundwork for vice.
[07:11 AM]  - 
[07:11 AM]  -  Thus the Master is content
[07:11 AM]  -  to serve as an example
[07:11 AM]  -  and not to impose her will.
[07:11 AM]  -  She is pointed, but doesn't pierce.
[07:11 AM]  -  Straightforward, but supple.
[07:11 AM]  -  Radiant, but easy on the eyes.
[07:11 AM]  -  ***********
[07:11 AM]  -  C
[07:11 AM]  -  When the hand of the ruler is light,
[07:11 AM]  -  the people do not contrive,
[07:11 AM]  -  but when the country is severely ruled,
[07:11 AM]  -  the people grow in cunning.
[07:11 AM]  -  The actions of the sage are sharp,
[07:11 AM]  -  but they are never cutting,
[07:11 AM]  -  they are pointed, though never piercing,
[07:11 AM]  -  they are straightforward, not contrived,
[07:11 AM]  -  and not without restraint,
[07:11 AM]  -  brilliant but not blinding.
[07:11 AM]  -  This is the action of the sage,
[07:11 AM]  -  because he is aware
[07:11 AM]  -  that where happiness exists,
[07:11 AM]  -  there is also misery and strife;
[07:11 AM]  -  that where honesty may be found,
[07:11 AM]  -  there is occasion for dishonesty,
[07:11 AM]  -  and that men may be beguiled.
[07:11 AM]  -  The sage knows that no-one can foretell
[07:11 AM]  -  just what the future holds.
[07:11 AM]  -  ~~END~~
[07:11 AM]  - 
[07:11 AM]  Corwyn Allen: Ok, sorry that last one went by so fast. I'll give you all a minute to read up
[07:12 AM]  Corwyn Allen: Ohayo Onmurra-san
[07:12 AM]  Corwyn Allen: Please come in and join us
[07:13 AM]  Taras Balderdash: The first part of this chapter certainly reflects the central concept o the Yi Jing (I Ching), that good fortune and ill are paired, one producing the other n a constant cycle. We are tasked with surfing this wave of change.
[07:14 AM]  Corwyn Allen nods
[07:14 AM]  Taras Balderdash: But ho aboutthe en fo the chaptrr? is this a call for balance? Or a call to be mediocre and just creep through llfe unnoticed?
[07:14 AM]  Corwyn Allen: So you would say that a good ruler should recognize when it is necessary to make more of fewer lawas?
[07:15 AM]  Taras Balderdash: *end of the chapter
[07:15 AM]  Basil Brooks: it speaks ov governing but we can all reateit to our daily lives.
[07:15 AM]  Taras Balderdash: But theruler can't retreat. And this book was written primarily for rulers
[07:16 AM]  Jungleer Rush: Yes...I think a few in government should pay head to this verse :)
[07:16 AM]  Corwyn Allen: The ruler must govern, but not rule.
[07:16 AM]  Basil Brooks: to coexist with the duality in knowing our oneness with all
[07:16 AM]  Corwyn Allen: I believe it was Tacitus who said, "The more corrupt the government the greater the number of laws"
[07:17 AM]  Taras Balderdash: Our oneness, and our creativity
[07:17 AM]  Basil Brooks: creativity is one aspect
[07:17 AM]  Taras Balderdash: It's a pretty good indicator
[07:18 AM]  Basil Brooks: hahahahaha...yes indeed
[07:18 AM]  Taras Balderdash: To rule by regulation is not th way of a sage
[07:18 AM]  Corwyn Allen: So what does it menat to be sharp but not cutting?
[07:18 AM]  Corwyn Allen: Brilliant but not blinding?
[07:19 AM]  Basil Brooks: jimmeny cricket!!!
[07:19 AM]  Corwyn Allen: Pointed bu not Piercing?
[07:19 AM]  Corwyn Allen: Straighforward but not unrestrained?
[07:19 AM]  Corwyn Allen: What is Lao Tsu saying here?
[07:19 AM]  Taras Balderdash: I would say it means that you should show the people an example they are capable of following
[07:20 AM]  Corwyn Allen: And?
[07:20 AM]  metta Botanical: by "sharp but not cutting" I would think means perhaps they are precisely attuned to achieve the exact result desired without overkill?
[07:20 AM]  Corwyn Allen nods to Metta
[07:20 AM]  Taras Balderdash: If you want everyone to be partical physicists you wil end up with five of them...and a lot of unhappy plumbers who are forced to study particles
[07:20 AM]  Basil Brooks: hmmmmmmmmm
[07:20 AM]  Jungleer Rush: Rule with an even hand.
[07:20 AM]  Taras Balderdash: Good point, Metta
[07:21 AM]  Corwyn Allen: Perhaps, Jungleer, to govern rather than rule?
[07:21 AM]  metta Botanical: thank you
[07:21 AM]  Jungleer Rush: What is a government without it's people that contribute to it?
[07:21 AM]  Jungleer Rush: If the people aren't happy, it transfers thru everything.
[07:21 AM]  Corwyn Allen: So would you say that a good ruler should be an example and not force his ideals on teh people?
[07:22 AM]  Jungleer Rush: only like a parent to children at times :) *grins
[07:22 AM]  Corwyn Allen: Perhaps, but without treating them like children
[07:22 AM]  metta Botanical: I would say both an example and a guide. By that I mean that sometimes one needs to be more pro-active than just being an example, but one can do it skillfully, not with a sledge hammer
[07:23 AM]  Corwyn Allen: Yes Metta. I think this is what is meant by being straigtforward but unrestrained.
[07:23 AM]  Taras Balderdash: But how much control do people have over history? What I means is that there are times in he word when most of the world is led by particular forms of government. History passes like he seasons, now spring and summer, now chill of winter.
[07:23 AM]  metta Botanical nods to Corwyn
[07:23 AM]  Corwyn Allen: What do you mean Taras?
[07:24 AM]  Taras Balderdash: It is very difficult to be outside the 'norm' of the time
[07:24 AM]  Corwyn Allen: Yes, and the rulers often define the norm.
[07:24 AM]  Taras Balderdash: And thee is great pressure to bring a particular government in line with the generaltrend f the imes
[07:24 AM]  metta Botanical nods her head in agreement with the discussion
[07:24 AM]  Taras Balderdash: But do rulers define the norm, or are they put in place y it?
[07:24 AM]  Taras Balderdash: *by it?
[07:24 AM]  Corwyn Allen: Or a trend for a particular government to bring the world in line.
[07:25 AM]  Corwyn Allen: Excellent question
[07:25 AM]  Corwyn Allen: A bit of both perhaps?
[07:25 AM]  Corwyn Allen: Yin and yang?
[07:25 AM]  Corwyn Allen: Do the times define our actions as rulers? Or do our actions as rulers define the times?
[07:26 AM]  Taras Balderdash: More like the progressionof thehexagrams. One time leas to aother.
[07:26 AM]  metta Botanical: I think it is part of both. A strong ruler can certainly sway what other nations do but very few rulers can step completely outside the bounds of what other countries find acceptable and remain in power for long (although there are always exceptions to that latter).
[07:26 AM]  Taras Balderdash: That was Tolstoy's main point in War and Peace. Does Napolean lead France, or is he a product of what France had become
[07:26 AM]  Corwyn Allen: So then it is up to the ruler to know the difference and act accordingly?
[07:28 AM]  Corwyn Allen: All right. If there is no further discussion on this one I'll move on to the next verse
[07:28 AM]  Taras Balderdash: Ok.
[07:28 AM]  -  Fifty Nine:  Guarding the Tao
[07:28 AM]  - 
[07:28 AM]  -  A
[07:28 AM]  -  In caring for others and serving heaven,
[07:28 AM]  -  There is nothing like using restraint.
[07:28 AM]  -  Restraint begins with giving up one's own ideas.
[07:28 AM]  -  This depends on Virtue gathered in the past.
[07:28 AM]  -  Is there is a good store of Virtue, then nothing is impossible.
[07:28 AM]  -  If nothing is impossible, then there are no limits.
[07:28 AM]  -  If a man knows no limits, then he is fit to be a ruler.
[07:28 AM]  -  The mother principle of ruling holds good for a long time.
[07:28 AM]  -  This is called having deep roots and a firm foundation,
[07:28 AM]  -  The Tao of long life and eternal vision.
[07:28 AM]  -  *************
[07:28 AM]  -  B
[07:28 AM]  -  For governing a country well
[07:28 AM]  -  there is nothing better than moderation.
[07:28 AM]  - 
[07:28 AM]  -  The mark of a moderate man
[07:28 AM]  -  is freedom from his own ideas.
[07:28 AM]  -  Tolerant like the sky,
[07:28 AM]  -  all-pervading like sunlight,
[07:28 AM]  -  firm like a mountain,
[07:28 AM]  -  supple like a tree in the wind,
[07:29 AM]  -  he has no destination in view
[07:29 AM]  -  and makes use of anything
[07:29 AM]  -  life happens to bring his way.
[07:29 AM]  - 
[07:29 AM]  -  Nothing is impossible for him.
[07:29 AM]  -  Because he has let go,
[07:29 AM]  -  he can care for the people's welfare
[07:29 AM]  -  as a mother cares for her child.
[07:29 AM]  -  *********
[07:29 AM]  -  C
[07:29 AM]  -  By acting with no thought of self-advancement,
[07:29 AM]  -  but with self-restraint,
[07:29 AM]  -  it is possible to lead,
[07:29 AM]  -  and genuinely care for others.
[07:29 AM]  -  This happens by acting virtuously,
[07:29 AM]  -  and leaving nothing to be done.
[07:29 AM]  -  A foundation virtuous and firm,
[07:29 AM]  -  rooted in receptivity,
[07:29 AM]  -  is a prerequisite of good leadership,
[07:29 AM]  -  and for a life both long and strong.
[07:29 AM]  -  He whose virtue knows no limit,
[07:29 AM]  -  is most fitting to lead.
[07:29 AM]  -  His roots are deep,
[07:29 AM]  -  and his life protected
[07:29 AM]  -  by his meditative practice,
[07:29 AM]  -  as the bark protects the tree.
[07:29 AM]  -  ~~END~~
[07:29 AM]  - 
[07:29 AM]  metta Botanical thinks it should always be up to a GOOD ruler to know what that and act in accordance with what is best for his or her country, keeping in mind that their country is part of the world (that was held from above as I was typing it as Corywn started the next verse and did not want to intersperse it in the verse). *goes to read this verse now*
[07:31 AM]  Corwyn Allen: Sorry Metta
[07:31 AM]  Basil Brooks: brb
[07:31 AM]  Taras Balderdash: But wen you have a psychotic in charge, like Stalin, he thinks killing halfthe country i in its best interest. So history throws curve balls.
[07:32 AM]  Taras Balderdash: 59 is a very rich and insteesting verse as a text, and lays the groundwork for a lot of meditative and other techniques later
[07:32 AM]  metta Botanical: you did not know I was typing, Corywn, as I had started with a /me so you could not see it. As to this verse, I think I like the B translation best. It is clearest for me.
[07:32 AM]  Corwyn Allen sees Metta typing this time and waits for her to finish
[07:33 AM]  metta Botanical smiles at Corwyn
[07:33 AM]  Corwyn Allen: All three versions almost read like different verse don't thet.
[07:33 AM]  Corwyn Allen: they
[07:33 AM]  Taras Balderdash: Agriculture ad frugality always go together, and this chapter sets the tone for both.
[07:33 AM]  Corwyn Allen: A college professor of mine once told me, "Everything in moderation, including moderation."
[07:34 AM]  Taras Balderdash: True. One wants frugality, not miserliness.
[07:34 AM]  metta Botanical: A made me say "how's that again?" but I really liked

The mark of a moderate man
is freedom from his own ideas.

he has no destination in view
and makes use of anything
life happens to bring his way.
[07:35 AM]  Jungleer Rush smiles
[07:35 AM]  Corwyn Allen nods "Making lemonade when life hands you lemons."
[07:36 AM]  Taras Balderdash: But to me the chapter teaches a different leson: plan for th lemon season so you don't have to buy expensiv lemons at te last moment
[07:36 AM]  metta Botanical chuckles at Corwyn's modern day interpretation of it
[07:36 AM]  Corwyn Allen smiles
[07:37 AM]  Corwyn Allen: How does a good ruler act according to this verse?
[07:37 AM]  Corwyn Allen: How is he moderate?
[07:37 AM]  Taras Balderdash: I need to do somethingabout this typing thing. It only clips letters in SL. I should chage my client.
[07:37 AM]  Corwyn Allen: Free from his own ideas?
[07:37 AM]  Corwyn Allen: I've been having that problem even with the new client
[07:37 AM]  Corwyn Allen: It's SL lag I believe
[07:38 AM]  Corwyn Allen: Anyway....
[07:38 AM]  metta Botanical does not disagree with Taras (would not dare to do such a thing) but wonders where he sees the planning part in it, I see more of a "be free to go with the flow" in int
[07:38 AM]  metta Botanical: *it
[07:38 AM]  Jungleer Rush: Free from his own ideas = Think with an open mind. Be receptive to other things, people and ideas.
[07:39 AM]  Taras Balderdash: The phrase 'planning early' is in the Chinese
[07:39 AM]  Corwyn Allen nods to Jungleer
[07:39 AM]  metta Botanical: yes, Jungleer, that is what I see in it. Thank you for the clarification on that, Taras.
[07:39 AM]  Taras Balderdash: 'Restraint is called being prepared early'
[07:39 AM]  Corwyn Allen: All prior planning should be done in advance?
[07:40 AM]  metta Botanical raises an eyebrow at Corwyn
[07:40 AM]  Taras Balderdash: I don' thinkanyone can do that.
[07:40 AM]  Corwyn Allen smiles
[07:40 AM]  Taras Balderdash: You prepare a careful battle plan. Then when the fightstarts, you immediately change it.
[07:40 AM]  Jungleer Rush: plan for, but do not be so like water :) things are always changing, as hard as you plan for it :)
[07:40 AM]  Corwyn Allen: Sorry, a humous adage used by the father of a friend of mine.
[07:40 AM]  Corwyn Allen: Good for many occassions.
[07:40 AM]  Corwyn Allen: humourous
[07:41 AM]  Corwyn Allen: Yes, Jungleer
[07:41 AM]  Corwyn Allen: But even in a flowing stream one can guide one's own path
[07:41 AM]  Taras Balderdash: But there i anothr elemnt here
[07:41 AM]  Corwyn Allen: The trick here is for the ruler to guide the people while letting them be the stream
[07:41 AM]  Taras Balderdash: *element
[07:41 AM]  Jungleer Rush: just gotta have a good paddle :) *grins...and know when to trust the stream will carry you thru on it's own :)
[07:41 AM]  Taras Balderdash: Accumulating De (Virtue)
[07:42 AM]  Taras Balderdash: If you practise a skill for10,000 hours you will be good atit
[07:42 AM]  metta Botanical: I think the whole point of being well prepared for anything is that you are also prepared for most contingengies and thus can be flexible to adapt to most of what may happen without losing the benefit of your advance preparation
[07:42 AM]  Taras Balderdash: It's not enough to trust the stream, you must be skileld, and that comes from conserving your efforts and building up skill
[07:43 AM]  Corwyn Allen nods to Metta, "Like the old military adage that a plan never survives first contact with the enemy"
[07:43 AM]  Jungleer Rush: hehe, that's the truth :)
[07:43 AM]  metta Botanical: yes, but a good plan is flexible enough to be adapted quickly and efficiently
[07:43 AM]  Corwyn Allen: Yes, Taras, hence the ability to swim or paddle in the stream.
[07:43 AM]  Corwyn Allen: The skill
[07:43 AM]  Corwyn Allen: As it were
[07:43 AM]  Corwyn Allen: Yes Metta, you're quite correct.
[07:44 AM]  Basil Brooks: and where is the enemy?
[07:44 AM]  Basil Brooks: what enemy
[07:44 AM]  Corwyn Allen smiles at Basil "Don't think of it in terms of enemy in this case. That was just a metaphor. The "enemy" if you will is the situation itself."
[07:45 AM]  Basil Brooks: ahhhhhhhhh...ok ;-)))
[07:45 AM]  Corwyn Allen: So you can say that no plan survives contact with the situation
[07:45 AM]  Taras Balderdash: In farming: Weeds, birds, etc
[07:45 AM]  metta Botanical nods
[07:45 AM]  Corwyn Allen: So the plan as Metta syas must be flexible
[07:45 AM]  Corwyn Allen: And the ruler perforce must be flexible
[07:45 AM]  metta Botanical smiles
[07:45 AM]  Taras Balderdash: Wang Bi has an interesting angle on this
[07:45 AM]  Corwyn Allen: Guiding and not forcing the stream to flow in the direction he wants
[07:46 AM]  Taras Balderdash: He uses the term 'reductive' for frugal
[07:46 AM]  Corwyn Allen listens to Taras
[07:46 AM]  Taras Balderdash: Sayingthat the framr reduces the many varieties to one productive crop
[07:47 AM]  Taras Balderdash: Staying focused, we might cal it today
[07:47 AM]  Corwyn Allen: Yes, focus is a good term
[07:48 AM]  Corwyn Allen: Well, we only have ten minutes or so left, and I don't want to start on the next verse with so l ittle time.
[07:48 AM]  Corwyn Allen: IS there anything anyone wants to discuss about what we've read this morning?
[07:48 AM]  Taras Balderdash: As in other places, Laozi calls for preserving energy...
[07:49 AM]  Taras Balderdash: to live a lon and productive life
[07:49 AM]  Taras Balderdash: Not blasting through life like a squall, burning out early
[07:49 AM]  Corwyn Allen nods at Taras
[07:49 AM]  Taras Balderdash: But plodding along enjoying quiet joy
[07:49 AM]  Corwyn Allen: All thrust and no vector as it were.
[07:49 AM]  Corwyn Allen: One must have direction and use their thrust judiciously
[07:50 AM]  metta Botanical comments only that while this was a good session I definitely can tell that I was the only woman here. The flow is not the same when we are not balance with male and female perspectives for the Tao.
[07:50 AM]  metta Botanical: *balanced
[07:50 AM]  Corwyn Allen smiles at Metta
[07:50 AM]  Corwyn Allen: Yes, we need mor Yin.
[07:50 AM]  Taras Balderdash: True. Now let's talk aboutsports andbeer.
[07:50 AM]  metta Botanical chuckles
[07:50 AM]  Basil Brooks: woohooo!!!!
[07:50 AM]  Corwyn Allen looks fo Okasan's fan to whack Taras.
[07:50 AM]  Taras Balderdash: Ha! No fan.
[07:51 AM]  Corwyn Allen: All right then, if there's nothing else besieds sprots and beer you're all free to go.
[07:51 AM]  Jungleer Rush: lol...she took it with her I think...that's a mighty powerful fan :)
[07:51 AM]  Corwyn Allen: Except Taras who will write 100 times I will not drink beer in class
[07:51 AM]  Jungleer Rush: lol
[07:51 AM]  Taras Balderdash: *makes sure there are no other loose ojects harder than pillows available.
[07:51 AM]  metta Botanical will try to encourage Ginger to rejoin us next week. I was told not to wake her up though if she was asleep and she is
[07:51 AM]  Basil Brooks: ahahahahahaha..hic!!
[07:51 AM]  Corwyn Allen smiles
[07:51 AM]  Taras Balderdash: Oh yeah, right, like I could write in his stte!
[07:51 AM]  Corwyn Allen: Thank you all for you tolerance this morning of me leading this class.
[07:51 AM]  Jungleer Rush: I'm so glad I could finally make one of these session :)
[07:52 AM]  metta Botanical: Thank you for doing this, Corwyn. I do think it went well
[07:52 AM]  Taras Balderdash: *state
[07:52 AM]  Corwyn Allen: I need to pop into RL quickly, but please stay and chat among yourslves.
[07:52 AM]  Basil Brooks: ty for being here , Jungleer
[07:52 AM]  Taras Balderdash: Thanks, Corwyn!
[07:52 AM]  Jungleer Rush: Thanks Corwyn :)
[07:52 AM]  metta Botanical proves she is a woman by heading off to do some shopping
[07:52 AM]  Basil Brooks: bows humbly
[07:52 AM]  Jungleer Rush bows with respect to his brother
[07:52 AM]  Corwyn Allen bows humbly.
[07:52 AM]  Corwyn Allen: Thank you all
[07:52 AM]  Taras Balderdash: Me too. Off to round world!
[07:52 AM]  metta Botanical takes a humble bow
[07:52 AM]  metta Botanical: farewell all, see you again soon
[07:52 AM]  Jungleer Rush: Good to see you all :) new friends and old :)
[07:53 AM]  metta Botanical smiles as she departs

Tao, 56-57, March 29, 2009

[07:07 AM]  Suzanne Logan: *smiles to everyone... please enjoy your tea and fruit.. while I shuffle my papers... if you need anything Geisha Kyoko will be happy to help you.. she is our new Geigi....head geisha
[07:07 AM]  Anisa Nadir smiles softly
[07:07 AM]  TaraLi Jie: Congratuations, Geisha Kyoko!
[07:08 AM]  Suzanne Logan shakes out her papers and turns to chapter 56
[07:08 AM]  Anisa Nadir: would anyone like some tea this morning ?
[07:08 AM]  Corwyn Allen: Please come in Nishi-san
[07:08 AM]  Fruit Platter: Juicy and sweet, so good for you, TaraLi Jie.
[07:08 AM]  Anisa Nadir: a domo Jie San smiles softly
[07:08 AM]  Fruit Platter: Sweet ripe bananas, TaraLi Jie, great with cold milk!
[07:08 AM]  Fruit Platter: Sweetly fragrant, TaraLi Jie, so good with cheese and wine.
[07:08 AM]  metta Botanical: Kayleigh Galthie is not in world this morning.
[07:08 AM]  Fruit Platter: Juicy and sweet, so good for you, TaraLi Jie.
[07:08 AM]  Fruit Platter: Sweet peaches from Georgia orchards, TaraLi Jie.
[07:08 AM]  Fruit Platter: A favorite summertime treat, TaraLi Jie.
[07:08 AM]  Fruit Platter: Mmmm! Red and juicy, TaraLi Jie, wonderful at summertime barbecues.
[07:09 AM]  Suzanne Logan: Youkosa !
[07:09 AM]  Arishia Nishi: can someone here help me?
[07:09 AM]  Suzanne Logan: please come in and be comfortable
[07:09 AM]  Suzanne Logan bows to honor you
[07:09 AM]  Corwyn Allen: Hai
[07:09 AM]  Corwyn Allen bows respectfully.
[07:10 AM]  Corwyn Allen: How may we help you Nishi-san
[07:11 AM]  Suzanne Logan smiles softly and begins...allowing the newcomer to choose her way
[07:11 AM]  -: Fifty Six - Virtuous Passivity
[07:11 AM]  Basil Brooks: Please join us Arisha
[07:11 AM]  -: A.
[07:11 AM]  -: Those who know do not talk.
[07:11 AM]  -: Thos who talk do not know.
[07:12 AM]  -:
[07:12 AM]  -: Keep your mouth closed.
[07:12 AM]  -: Guard your senses.
[07:12 AM]  -: Temper your sharpness.
[07:12 AM]  -: Simplify your problems.
[07:12 AM]  -: Mask your brightness.
[07:12 AM]  -: Be at one with the dust of the earth.
[07:13 AM]  -: This is primal union.
[07:13 AM]  -:
[07:13 AM]  -: He who has achieved this state
[07:13 AM]  -: Is unconcerned with friends and enemies,
[07:13 AM]  -: With good and harm, with honor and disgrace.
[07:13 AM]  -: This therefore is the highest state of man.
[07:13 AM]  -: ***********
[07:13 AM]  -: B
[07:13 AM]  -: Those who know don't talk.
[07:13 AM]  -: Those who talk don't know.
[07:13 AM]  -:
[07:13 AM]  -: Close your mouth,
[07:13 AM]  -: block off your senses,
[07:13 AM]  -: blunt your sharpness,
[07:13 AM]  -: untie your knots,
[07:13 AM]  -: soften your glare,
[07:13 AM]  -: settle your dust.
[07:13 AM]  -: This is the primal identity.
[07:13 AM]  -:
[07:13 AM]  -: Be like the Tao.
[07:13 AM]  -: It can't be approached or withdrawn from,
[07:13 AM]  -: benefited or harmed,
[07:14 AM]  Anisa Nadir takes a humble bow
[07:14 AM]  -: honored or brought into disgrace.
[07:14 AM]  -: It gives itself up continually.
[07:14 AM]  -: That is why it endures.
[07:14 AM]  -: ***********
[07:14 AM]  -: C
[07:14 AM]  -: Those who know the natural way
[07:14 AM]  -: have no need of boasting,
[07:14 AM]  -: whilst those who know but little,
[07:14 AM]  -: may be heard most frequently;
[07:14 AM]  -: thus, the sage says little,
[07:14 AM]  -: if anything at all.
[07:14 AM]  -: Not demanding stimuli,
[07:14 AM]  -: he tempers his sharpness well,
[07:14 AM]  -: reduces the complex to simplicity,
[07:14 AM]  -: hiding his brilliance, seemingly dull;
[07:14 AM]  -: he settles the dust,
[07:14 AM]  -: whilst in union with all natural things.
[07:14 AM]  -: He who has attained enlightenment
[07:14 AM]  -: (without contriving so to do)
[07:14 AM]  -: is not concerned with making friends,
[07:14 AM]  -: nor with making enemies;
[07:14 AM]  -: with good or harm, with praise or blame.
[07:14 AM]  -: Such detatchment is the highest state of man.
[07:15 AM]  -: ~~END~~
[07:15 AM]  Xing Zsun: That is one of my favourtite verses
[07:15 AM]  Basil Brooks: indeed
[07:15 AM]  Anisa Nadir: smiles
[07:15 AM]  Suzanne Logan: yes... It has a lot of good wisdom packed in there... and I actually like the C interpretation the best..
[07:15 AM]  TaraLi Jie keeps silent, as the Toa directs...
[07:16 AM]  TaraLi Jie: *giggles* quietly.
[07:16 AM]  Suzanne Logan: well we are ok to "discuss"
[07:17 AM]  Basil Brooks: I dont necessarily think the Tao directs but just is
[07:17 AM]  Xing Zsun: yes
[07:17 AM]  TaraLi Jie: Aye - and I am not a Sage, so...
[07:17 AM]  metta Botanical thinks the sage would be rather boring to hang out with on SL, hopefully he or she would at least have a nice avatar to look at as if the way one shows wisdom is to keep silent, it does not make one a very good companion on SL.
[07:18 AM]  Suzanne Logan: *smiles... do you think this verse is for ALL situations??
[07:18 AM]  TaraLi Jie: Sages are not noted for being good companions, unless you're on your way to being a sage yourself.
[07:18 AM]  Basil Brooks: hahahahah , yes , though we are all sages here ;-))
[07:18 AM]  Taras Balderdash: So, if one who speaks does not know, and Laozi is saying this, does Laozi know?
[07:18 AM]  Corwyn Allen: What time does the sage leave for Tombstone?
[07:18 AM]  Suzanne Logan laughs.. good point Taras
[07:19 AM]  Basil Brooks: ;-))
[07:19 AM]  Taras Balderdash: *guffaws
[07:19 AM]  Suzanne Logan: but lets look at this... is it about boasting?
[07:19 AM]  TaraLi Jie: Yes, there are almost paradoxical elements present in most of the Tao verses I've seen.
[07:19 AM]  metta Botanical: or if you are parsley, rosemary and thyme as they seem to like to hang out with sage *slaps herself and goes to quickly grab her first cup of coffee as she thinks her brain badly needs to wake-up*
[07:19 AM]  Suzanne Logan: so there are those that insist on their point...driving it home bulldozing over others
[07:19 AM]  Taras Balderdash: Answer: The sage leaves for Tombstone when the people need him or her there.
[07:19 AM]  Xing Zsun: it's a little like pride goes before a fall
[07:20 AM]  Corwyn Allen looks at Okasan as she uses the "b" word
[07:20 AM]  Suzanne Logan: as opposed to the person who quietly may interject wisdom into a discussion
[07:20 AM]  TaraLi Jie: Aye - the one or two words that completely rearranges everyone's perception of things.
[07:20 AM]  TaraLi Jie: I have seen it happen - but I am not nearly that wise.
[07:20 AM]  Suzanne Logan throws a feather in Metta-san's direction.. *grins
[07:21 AM]  Suzanne Logan: that is it TaraLi...exactly
[07:21 AM]  Tea cup Tomesode whispers: Ah! Steaming Green Tea!
[07:21 AM]  Suzanne Logan: I often look at the Tao related to work... I think of the meetings I attend...people saying the same thing and then that one person will say something and we all go .... ah hah
[07:22 AM]  Taras Balderdash: Yes, and at that point....
[07:22 AM]  Taras Balderdash: a manager will figure out away to lay that original thnker off
[07:23 AM]  Taras Balderdash: *a way
[07:23 AM]  Basil Brooks: ;-)))
[07:23 AM]  TaraLi Jie: Yeah.... I've noticed that seems to work that way...
[07:23 AM]  Xing Zsun: yes indeed
[07:24 AM]  Taras Balderdash: The Dao De Jing speaksof that. The small person laughs at the Dao. If hey didn't, it wouldn't be the Dao.
[07:24 AM]  Taras Balderdash: Every great invention is first atttacked and reviled by other scientist, then acknowledgesd as genius
[07:24 AM]  Taras Balderdash: The most recent was the bacterial cause of ulcers
[07:24 AM]  metta Botanical: ah that explains it, Taras. In real life I am 4'9" and this morning the Tao is making me giggle.
[07:24 AM]  TaraLi Jie: Ehhh, that's not always so true, Taras...
[07:24 AM]  Xing Zsun: usually after death
[07:25 AM]  TaraLi Jie: But I will tao to your greater wisdom.
[07:25 AM]  Taras Balderdash: The discoverer had to give himself and cure himself of an ulcer to prve the point.
[07:25 AM]  Taras Balderdash: Well, yes, not always
[07:25 AM]  TaraLi Jie knows of the situation with heliobacter pyloris.
[07:25 AM]  Taras Balderdash: But many, many times.
[07:25 AM]  metta Botanical giggles at Tarali's comment
[07:25 AM]  TaraLi Jie: But Richard Feynman's discoveries were well recieved.
[07:25 AM]  Suzanne Logan: *peers at Tarali.... thinking of throwing a pillow...but giving him a grace point
[07:26 AM]  Taras Balderdash: That's because he had the Dao. A sage-scientist
[07:26 AM]  TaraLi Jie: True, I do think.
[07:26 AM]  Taras Balderdash: It is he middle territory that has a difficult time, I think.
[07:26 AM]  Taras Balderdash: *the
[07:26 AM]  TaraLi Jie: *nods*
[07:26 AM]  Suzanne Logan: what do you think about the other parts of this chapter?
[07:27 AM]  TaraLi Jie: [7:14] -: He who has attained enlightenment [7:14] -: (without contriving so to do)
[07:28 AM]  TaraLi Jie: Basically - if you're studying to become enlightened, you can't make it there?
[07:28 AM]  Basil Brooks: agree
[07:28 AM]  TaraLi Jie knows of orthodox, and paradox, and thinks he's finally found metadox.
[07:29 AM]  Basil Brooks: I like the stugg aboout living in harmony with nature
[07:29 AM]  Basil Brooks: stuff
[07:30 AM]  TaraLi Jie: Aye - I'm a bit of a Gaianist, myself...
[07:30 AM]  metta Botanical: This verse really irritates me this morning. This sage sounds like a total bore. We need some stimulation in our lives if we are to grow. I do not buy that one who is enlightened is finished growing because "after enlightenment, chop wood, carry water" - the difference being after enlightenment, we have the tools to do so in a way that is more beneficial to us and others.
[07:31 AM]  Taras Balderdash: *smiles
[07:31 AM]  Suzanne Logan: that is honest Metta-san...
[07:31 AM]  TaraLi Jie: I'm thinking I'm wanting to be buried in a plain cotton sheet, unembalmed, somewhere where plants will take nourishment from me.
[07:31 AM]  Basil Brooks: the verse does not say not to laugh and have fun
[07:31 AM]  metta Botanical: not after enlightenment, become a mummy or a zombie - i.e., after enlightenment, one is meant to still live and grow ...
[07:31 AM]  Corwyn Allen: Yes, Metta. BUt there are those who achieve satori and ascend, and those whoachieve satori and stay behind as Bodhisatvas to the rest of us.
[07:31 AM]  Xing Zsun: and glow :)
[07:32 AM]  TaraLi Jie: *laughs*
[07:32 AM]  TaraLi Jie thinks of the Organians from Star Trek...
[07:32 AM]  metta Botanical: I think I am going to continue to have a problem with "Not demanding stimuli," as without stimuli to respond to, one is not really living -one is only existing.
[07:33 AM]  TaraLi Jie: No, not really, metta...
[07:33 AM]  metta Botanical: one might as well be in a coma if one tries to remove all stimuli from one's life
[07:33 AM]  TaraLi Jie: Not demanding stimuli, because the sage knows he'll get it anyway.
[07:33 AM]  metta Botanical: ah, now that interpretation, I like, Tarali .... not demanding because he knows he will get it anyway
[07:34 AM]  TaraLi Jie: After all, That Which Is is going to do what it wants - and doesn't care how enligihtened you are.
[07:34 AM]  Suzanne Logan: this is about being at peace... not *striving*...
[07:34 AM]  TaraLi Jie: *nods*
[07:34 AM]  TaraLi Jie: Making lemonade from all the lemons tossed at you.
[07:34 AM]  Taras Balderdash: I think of it as someone who gets in touch with the foundation of the Cosmos. On the scale of te stars, what goes on at a staff meeting is pretty small....
[07:34 AM]  Corwyn Allen: Or drinking a lot of tequila
[07:34 AM]  Suzanne Logan: to me this further illustrates the difference between a "human doing" and a "human being"
[07:34 AM]  Taras Balderdash: so you can cut through te nonsense and see what is really important in what is being done
[07:35 AM]  Suzanne Logan: right Taras... exactly!
[07:35 AM]  metta Botanical: now see to me, what Taras just said is what I was referring to when I said the difference is that after enlightenment you have better tools to live with.
[07:35 AM]  Suzanne Logan: that perspective given can move the course of boring to dynamic
[07:35 AM]  metta Botanical states that her comment is in resonse to Taras words about the staff meeting and stars
[07:36 AM]  Suzanne Logan: may we look at the next verse?
[07:36 AM]  metta Botanical: *response
[07:36 AM]  Taras Balderdash: Monks used to keep a memento mori in thir cells, a skull or a coffin, their own coffin.
[07:36 AM]  Taras Balderdash: It kept them 'grounded'
[07:36 AM]  Suzanne Logan nods..
[07:36 AM]  TaraLi Jie: Sure - let's see what else the Tao has for us today.
[07:36 AM]  -:
[07:36 AM]  -: Fifty Seven: Simplification
[07:36 AM]  -: A
[07:36 AM]  -: Rule a nation with justice.
[07:36 AM]  -: Wage war with surprise moves.
[07:36 AM]  -: Become master of the universe without striving.
[07:36 AM]  -: How do I know that this is so?
[07:36 AM]  -: Because of this!
[07:36 AM]  -:
[07:36 AM]  -: The more laws and restricitons there are,
[07:36 AM]  -: The poorer people become.
[07:36 AM]  -: The sharper men's weapons,
[07:37 AM]  -: The more trouble in the land.
[07:37 AM]  -: The more ingenious and clever men are,
[07:37 AM]  -: The more strange things happen.
[07:37 AM]  -: The more rules and regulation,
[07:37 AM]  -: The more thieves and robbers.
[07:37 AM]  -:
[07:37 AM]  -: Therefore the sage says:
[07:37 AM]  -: I take no action and people are reformed.
[07:37 AM]  -: I enjoy peace and people become honest.
[07:37 AM]  -: I do nothing and people become rich.
[07:37 AM]  -: I have no desire and people return to the good and simple life.
[07:37 AM]  -: ***********
[07:37 AM]  -: B
[07:37 AM]  -: If you want to be a great leader,
[07:37 AM]  -: you must learn to follow the Tao.
[07:37 AM]  -: Stop trying to control.
[07:37 AM]  -: Let go of fixed plans and concepts,
[07:37 AM]  -: and the world will govern itself.
[07:37 AM]  -:
[07:37 AM]  -: The more prohibitions you have,
[07:37 AM]  -: the less virtuous people will be.
[07:37 AM]  -: The more weapons you have,
[07:37 AM]  -: the less secure people will be.
[07:37 AM]  -: The more subsidies you have,
[07:37 AM]  -: the less self-reliant people will be.
[07:37 AM]  -:
[07:37 AM]  -: Therefore the Master says:
[07:37 AM]  -: I let go of the law,
[07:37 AM]  -: and people become honest.
[07:37 AM]  -: I let go of economics,
[07:37 AM]  -: and people become prosperous.
[07:37 AM]  -: I let go of religion,
[07:37 AM]  -: and people become serene.
[07:37 AM]  -: I let go of all desire for the common good,
[07:37 AM]  -: and the good becomes common as grass.
[07:37 AM]  -: ********
[07:37 AM]  -: C
[07:38 AM]  -: With natural justice, people must be ruled,
[07:38 AM]  -: and if war be waged, strategy and tactics used.
[07:38 AM]  -: To master one's self,
[07:38 AM]  -: one must act without cunning.
[07:38 AM]  -: The greater the number of laws and restrictions,
[07:38 AM]  -: the poorer the people who inhabit the land.
[07:38 AM]  -: The sharper the weapons of battle and war,
[07:38 AM]  -: the greater the troubles besetting the land.
[07:38 AM]  -: The greater the cunning with which people are ruled,
[07:38 AM]  -: the stranger the things which occur in the land.
[07:38 AM]  -: The harder the rules and regulations,
[07:38 AM]  -: the greater the number of those who will steal.
[07:38 AM]  -: The sage therefore does not contrive,
[07:38 AM]  -: in order to bring about reform,
[07:38 AM]  -: but teaches the people peace of mind,
[07:38 AM]  -: in order that they might enjoy their lives.
[07:38 AM]  -: Having no desires, all he does is natural.
[07:38 AM]  -: Since he teaches self-sufficiency,
[07:38 AM]  -: the people who follow him return
[07:38 AM]  -: to a good, uncomplicated life.
[07:38 AM]  -: ~~END~~
[07:38 AM]  -:
[07:38 AM]  Suzanne Logan: ah domo Taras-san *smiels
[07:38 AM]  Suzanne Logan: *smiles even
[07:39 AM]  Corwyn Allen: Thank you Taras-san
[07:39 AM]  metta Botanical: Thank you for the note card, Taras. That historical perspective helps me a lot with the previous verse.
[07:39 AM]  Basil Brooks: ty Tasas
[07:40 AM]  Taras Balderdash: I am honored by your reading my scribblings.
[07:40 AM]  TaraLi Jie: *nods* I note that the third interpretation addresses something that bothered me about the first two - the idea that the fewer weapons, the safer people are.
[07:40 AM]  TaraLi Jie: This whole verse seems to support a very libertarian political stance.
[07:41 AM]  Taras Balderdash: Perhaps, seen from now. But at the time the enire economy of all the listle states of China was taken up by wars and funerals
[07:41 AM]  metta Botanical: Your importance to this group is major, Taras, we truly notice it the weeks you cannot be here as there are times the historical perspective makes a great difference in understanding what the lesson of the Tao that week.
[07:41 AM]  Taras Balderdash: *little
[07:41 AM]  Xing Zsun: *sits inscrutable
[07:42 AM]  Suzanne Logan nods and agrees with Metta!
[07:42 AM]  TaraLi Jie: *nods* Of course, Taras...
[07:42 AM]  metta Botanical smiles at Xing
[07:42 AM]  TaraLi Jie: And the whole point of the Tao is, I think, self-governance.
[07:42 AM]  Taras Balderdash: *scrutes
[07:42 AM]  TaraLi Jie: To not need government imposed from outside.
[07:42 AM]  metta Botanical: and is also appreciative of Xing's wisdom when Xing does speak
[07:42 AM]  Corwyn Allen: Never try to unscrew the inscrutable.
[07:43 AM]  Suzanne Logan nods having the schooled and historical perspective, the spiritual and practical perspectives... all of us are valuable to this group.....*looks at Corwyn.. and the humor also lightens our way
[07:43 AM]  Fruit Platter: Juicy and sweet, so good for you, Basil Brooks.
[07:43 AM]  TaraLi Jie: I guess that, and the fact that both give you something incredible in the end, that makes the inscrutable like pregnant women.
[07:43 AM]  Suzanne Logan rolls her eyes and does throw a pillow at TaraLi-san
[07:44 AM]  Corwyn Allen: I often find it helthy to channel Ho Tai, the Laughing Buddha.
[07:44 AM]  Corwyn Allen: healthy even
[07:44 AM]  Suzanne Logan: ok so we have the historical perspective on this chapter... and does it apply to today?
[07:44 AM]  Taras Balderdash: I physically emulate the laughing Buddha
[07:45 AM]  Anisa Nadir smiles soflty and listens quietly
[07:45 AM]  Taras Balderdash: I need to diet, but keep laughing
[07:46 AM]  Suzanne Logan: is it true in our our context that the more laws there are the poorer people become?
[07:46 AM]  Suzanne Logan: and this is not financial poor ...necessarily ... but poor in an inability to think for themselves
[07:46 AM]  Taras Balderdash: Well, you have my opinion. I think the constant call to passivity are unproductive
[07:46 AM]  Suzanne Logan: hai but are more laws the answer?
[07:47 AM]  Suzanne Logan: more weapons?
[07:47 AM]  Corwyn Allen: Or those poor in ambition
[07:47 AM]  Suzanne Logan: do some of these things actually create negative consequences?
[07:47 AM]  Corwyn Allen: Those who would have tings done for them rather than do themselves
[07:47 AM]  Xing Zsun: Most of what we worry about does not happy so to be able to not worry is taoist
[07:47 AM]  TaraLi Jie: Most all of them create negative consequences.
[07:47 AM]  Xing Zsun: *happen
[07:48 AM]  Taras Balderdash: The more laws make for more crimes is an interesting point. But I would call it: More unneeded regulations, rather than laws
[07:48 AM]  Suzanne Logan: that is true Xing-san and so when the politicians worry...they make more laws
[07:48 AM]  Taras Balderdash: Basic laws areneeded, and in a cmplex society, are many
[07:48 AM]  Suzanne Logan: laws based on the 20% rather than the greater numbe of issues
[07:48 AM]  Corwyn Allen: More unneeded regulations. Yes, good point.
[07:48 AM]  TaraLi Jie: Aye - look at the sudden law they passed about the AIG bonuses...
[07:48 AM]  Taras Balderdash: But when regulation chokes production, an economy no longer functions and peopleresort to cheating to make a living.
[07:48 AM]  TaraLi Jie: 90% tax on those - and only because they expect the states to take the other 10%
[07:49 AM]  TaraLi Jie: Instead of just enforcing fraud laws and putting them in jail as the common criminals they are.
[07:49 AM]  Suzanne Logan: yes.. my point.. it seems that the wise politician would NOT write laws on the onesy-twosey situations... but all my life we have seen that happening in federal and state government
[07:49 AM]  TaraLi Jie: Yep.
[07:49 AM]  Suzanne Logan: pick up the code of Federal regulations sometime
[07:50 AM]  Corwyn Allen: I can't. It's too heavy
[07:50 AM]  Suzanne Logan: just look at one little "health"
[07:50 AM]  TaraLi Jie: You can't, Suzanne - nobody is that's strong.
[07:50 AM]  Suzanne Logan: *laughs...exactly!!!
[07:50 AM]  Taras Balderdash: They on't want to enforce fraud law, or they would hae to arrest those who run te Social Security ponzi scheme.
[07:50 AM]  TaraLi Jie: Even a *SECTION* is too heavy.
[07:50 AM]  Suzanne Logan: and to read it... means to go blind in an hour
[07:50 AM]  TaraLi Jie: Right - you know, there's *GOT* to be some relation to the Necronomicon there....
[07:51 AM]  Suzanne Logan smiles at Taras.. yes....
[07:51 AM]  Corwyn Allen: Read it backwards
[07:51 AM]  Suzanne Logan: and what is a Necronomicon??
[07:51 AM]  TaraLi Jie: I would fear reading it aloud would call Dread Chthulu....
[07:51 AM]  TaraLi Jie: Legendary book of evil, Suzanne - from the Lovecraft mythos.
[07:51 AM]  Taras Balderdash: It's a book from the works of HP Lovecraft.
[07:52 AM]  Taras Balderdash: Makes those who read it go mad.
[07:52 AM]  Taras Balderdash: Like a Danniele Steele novel or the like.
[07:52 AM]  TaraLi Jie: Right, Taras.
[07:52 AM]  metta Botanical has only one comment on this section and that is while I usually prefer A, in this case C ( The sage therefore does not contrive,
in order to bring about reform,
but teaches the people peace of mind,
in order that they might enjoy their lives.
Having no desires, all he does is natural.
Since he teaches self-sufficiency,
the people who follow him return
to a good, uncomplicated life.) for me is much clearer than A or B. I very much like that perspective.
[07:52 AM]  Suzanne Logan: oh my goodness.. I finally read a DS novel... it drove me crazy and it went into the trash when I finished it
[07:52 AM]  Suzanne Logan: I agree with metta
[07:53 AM]  Xing Zsun: Why did you finish it?
[07:53 AM]  Taras Balderdash: Again, you canmake the people follow you and do good ifyou ar a sage...
[07:53 AM]  Taras Balderdash: you can force the to do your will with violence if you are a tyrant....
[07:53 AM]  Taras Balderdash: but most leaders take a middle way, and should not depend on the two extremes to rule.
[07:53 AM]  TaraLi Jie: Aye.
[07:54 AM]  Suzanne Logan: ah... a very sage-y statement
[07:54 AM]  Suzanne Logan: *smiles
[07:54 AM]  TaraLi Jie: Which, oddly enough, is one of the things Macchiavelli suggests...
[07:54 AM]  Taras Balderdash: Sorry about the typing quality. It's either the keyboard, the fingers, or SL. Maybe all of them.
[07:54 AM]  TaraLi Jie: He's really gotten a much worse rep than he deserves.
[07:55 AM]  Fruit Platter: Sweet peaches from Georgia orchards, Basil Brooks.
[07:55 AM]  Basil Brooks: yummm!!!
[07:55 AM]  Taras Balderdash: Never read him. He's on my Kindle, but about position 400 in the reading list. Scheduled for fiscal 2045.
[07:55 AM]  Suzanne Logan softly sets down her empty teacup on the table and looks to the group..
[07:55 AM]  metta Botanical: hmmmm, I had to read that twice - at first I thought Tarali was saing Taras had a much worse reputation (for typos) than he deserved, then I realized he meant Macchiavelli ...
[07:55 AM]  Taras Balderdash: Goodness, another hour has passed so quickly!
[07:56 AM]  Taras Balderdash: lol
[07:56 AM]  Taras Balderdash: Yeah, I've got a rep.
[07:56 AM]  Suzanne Logan nods smiling.. I wanted to talk to you alll a moment
[07:56 AM]  Corwyn Allen: Well friends, once again I must prepare for the poetry session at AVGI.
[07:56 AM]  Corwyn Allen: As always it has been a pleasure.
[07:56 AM]  metta Botanical tugs on Corywn's robes to keep him in place while Okasan talks to us
[07:56 AM]  TaraLi Jie listens to see what Suzanne has for us.
[07:56 AM]  Xing Zsun: This meeting is a lovely oasis in sl.
[07:56 AM]  Taras Balderdash: Live Long and Prosper, Corwyn, son of Allens
[07:57 AM]  Corwyn Allen grins at Taras and listens to Okasan
[07:57 AM]  Suzanne Logan: This coming weekend Friday through Monday is a celebration of our okiya's second anniversary....and really a celebration of our one year here at Amatsu Shima....well close
[07:57 AM]  Anisa Nadir listens quietly as Okasan talks to us
[07:57 AM]  Suzanne Logan: I hope you will all be able to attend some of the events
[07:57 AM]  Anisa Nadir: smiles
[07:57 AM]  Suzanne Logan: there is a sign at the front of the okiya and inside a notice of schedule
[07:57 AM]  Corwyn Allen having heard this speech disappears in a puff of logic
[07:58 AM]  metta Botanical cringes as she found out this morning when looking at her email that she missed girl's club again yesterday and does not know what we are doing for it.
[07:58 AM]  Suzanne Logan: Shuzenji an amazing and original ballet will be on Sunday.. 2 performances
[07:58 AM]  Taras Balderdash: I look forward to the events. Is it BYOS? (Bring your own sake)?
[07:58 AM]  Suzanne Logan: *grins.. I'll have some sake laying around
[07:58 AM]  Anisa Nadir: giggles
[07:58 AM]  Suzanne Logan: thank you all for coming today
[07:59 AM]  Anisa Nadir: sighs at the lag
[07:59 AM]  Suzanne Logan: do you want to meet this coming Sunday?
[07:59 AM]  Anisa Nadir: kicsk SL
[07:59 AM]  Basil Brooks: ty all for the wisdom!
[07:59 AM]  Taras Balderdash: Sorry, Basil. Lag makes for such grace of movement.
[07:59 AM]  Xing Zsun: i'm off to play with my textures. Thank you for a nice relaxing meeting
[07:59 AM]  Suzanne Logan bows to honor you
[07:59 AM]  Basil Brooks: The Tao is with us always ;-))
[07:59 AM]  Anisa Nadir takes a humble bow
[07:59 AM]  Taras Balderdash: Thanks, all! Bye now!
[07:59 AM]  TaraLi Jie: Is Ballet Pixels the same group as Ballet Pixelle ?
[07:59 AM]  Suzanne Logan: I question
[07:59 AM]  Basil Brooks: see it in others
[08:00 AM]  TaraLi Jie remembers when the latter was SL Ballet...
[08:00 AM]  Suzanne Logan: hai... I probably said it wrong
[08:00 AM]  TaraLi Jie listens... Sorry.
[08:00 AM]  Suzanne Logan: oh... just that it would be easier for me if we did not meet this coming Sunday
[08:00 AM]  Basil Brooks: good bye all have a great day!!!!
[08:00 AM]  Suzanne Logan: but I can do if you all wish
[08:00 AM]  TaraLi Jie: *smiles* Fair enough.
[08:01 AM]  metta Botanical: I am fine with it, if we do not, Okasan
[08:01 AM]  TaraLi Jie: I don't mind.
[08:01 AM]  Suzanne Logan: *smiles... I'll send announcement out then later in the week to remind everyone
[08:01 AM]  Anisa Nadir: lets get thru the festivities i think
[08:01 AM]  Suzanne Logan: thank you
[08:02 AM]  Suzanne Logan looks at Geisha Kyoko... hai *smiles happy to be taken care of
[08:02 AM]  Anisa Nadir smiles
[08:02 AM]  Suzanne Logan: I need to take care of a few sim things
[08:02 AM]  Suzanne Logan bows to honor you

Tao, 54-55, 3/15/09

06:45 AM]  metta Botanical quietly leaves her shoes outside before entering
[06:45 AM]  Corwyn Allen bows and smiles.
[06:45 AM]  Suzanne Logan bows to honor you
[06:45 AM]  Corwyn Allen: Ohayo Metta-san
[06:45 AM]  Suzanne Logan: konnichi wa Metta-san!
[06:45 AM]  Suzanne Logan: welcome !
[06:46 AM]  metta Botanical takes a humble bow
[06:46 AM]  Suzanne Logan bows to honor you
[06:46 AM]  Corwyn Allen bows and smiles.
[06:46 AM]  Corwyn Allen: Ohayo mei mei
[06:47 AM]  metta Botanical: Good morning all, my family is up so both Tarali and Ginger should be joining us this morning. Both are in world already.
[06:47 AM]  Suzanne Logan: Tsai-san nice to have you here!
[06:47 AM]  Tsai Jie: Ni hao, anda
[06:47 AM]  Corwyn Allen: Ni hao Breda
[06:47 AM]  Tsai Jie: /bows
[06:47 AM]  Corwyn Allen smiles
[06:47 AM]  Suzanne Logan: oh wonderful... Metta... it will be good to have everyone
[06:47 AM]  Corwyn Allen: Metta, this is my little sister, Tsai Jie
[06:47 AM]  Suzanne Logan: I see Taras is inworld too
[06:47 AM]  Tsai Jie: /hug Corwyn
[06:47 AM]  Tsai gives Corwyn a VERY BIG hug.
[06:48 AM]  Tsai Jie: love your hair Cor
[06:48 AM]  Corwyn Allen: Is this that 90 minute hug of yours?
[06:48 AM]  Corwyn Allen: Thanks
[06:48 AM]  Corwyn Allen: Ni hao Taras.
[06:48 AM]  Taras Balderdash: Ni hao!
[06:48 AM]  Suzanne Logan: Taras-san!!
[06:48 AM]  Suzanne Logan bows to honor you
[06:48 AM]  Tsai Jie: 90 second and yes. don't worry I won't get girl cooties on you
[06:48 AM]  Suzanne Logan: good to see you!
[06:48 AM]  metta Botanical apologizes to Okasan for missing girls' club yesterday, I completely forgot it was Saturday. I am finishing cleaning up the notes from last week now and will send them shortly.
[06:48 AM]  Corwyn Allen: LOL
[06:48 AM]  Suzanne Logan: please come in and be comfortable
[06:48 AM]  metta Botanical greets Tsai
[06:49 AM]  Suzanne Logan: ah thank you Metta... we had a very small class.
[06:49 AM]  Tsai Jie: ni hao ma, Metta
[06:49 AM]  Corwyn Allen: Taras, this is my mei mei Tsai Jie
[06:49 AM]  Corwyn Allen: We're... um... a very close family.
[06:49 AM]  Tsai Jie: Ni hao Taras
[06:49 AM]  Corwyn Allen: She likes to hug
[06:49 AM]  Corwyn Allen: ;)
[06:49 AM]  Taras Balderdash: Pleased to meet you!
[06:49 AM]  Tsai Jie: Corwyn speaks highly of you
[06:49 AM]  Taras Balderdash: Ah, thank you!
[06:50 AM]  Corwyn Allen: Tsai, come sit by me.
[06:50 AM]  Taras Balderdash: ao off
[06:50 AM]  Suzanne Logan bows to honor you
[06:50 AM]  Tsai Jie: xie-xie
[06:50 AM]  Suzanne Logan: good morning Tsai-san!
[06:50 AM]  Corwyn Allen: Love that chamfeong you're wearing Tsai
[06:51 AM]  Corwyn Allen: Hi Tarali-san
[06:51 AM]  Corwyn Allen: Ohyao
[06:51 AM]  Suzanne Logan: Tsai would you like to join the amatsu island group?
[06:51 AM]  Tsai Jie clasps her hands in front of her waist and bows
[06:51 AM]  TaraLi Jie: Greetings, Corwyn, Suzanna, metta!
[06:51 AM]  TaraLi Jie: *smiles*
[06:51 AM]  Tsai Jie: I would be honored, xie-xie ni
[06:51 AM]  Corwyn Allen: Metta, you're look ever so Scarlette O'Hara today
[06:51 AM]  TaraLi Jie: Hi, Taras, Ginger!
[06:51 AM]  Suzanne Logan bows to honor you
[06:51 AM]  Corwyn Allen: Ohayo Ginger-san
[06:51 AM]  Suzanne Logan: ohayou Ginger-san!
[06:52 AM]  Ginger Goldlust greets everyone
[06:52 AM]  Ginger Goldlust: good morning
[06:52 AM]  metta Botanical smiles at Corywn as she greets her arriving family
[06:52 AM]  Ginger Goldlust bows with respect and smiles
[06:52 AM]  TaraLi Jie slowly wakes up...
[06:53 AM]  Taras Balderdash: brb
[06:53 AM]  Suzanne Logan: we are all here....checking with Basil too
[06:53 AM]  Corwyn Allen: Is Anisa still sleeping?
[06:54 AM]  Suzanne Logan: probably ...this is not really the best time for her... I'll check though
[06:54 AM]  Suzanne Logan accepted your inventory offer.
[06:54 AM]  Ginger Goldlust wonders what the odds are of having a Taras, a TaraLi Jie, and a Asai Jie all in the same room
[06:54 AM]  Suzanne Logan: thank you Metta!
[06:54 AM]  Ginger Goldlust: *so sorry Tsai Jie
[06:54 AM]  Suzanne Logan: *giggles... yes.. something to that I would think
[06:54 AM]  Ginger Goldlust shake her typing fingers
[06:54 AM]  metta Botanical: You are welcome, Okasan. I will try to get better at sending them to you sooner.
[06:54 AM]  metta Botanical takes a humble bow
[06:54 AM]  Tsai Jie: bu ka qi, it is nothing
[06:54 AM]  TaraLi Jie: *laughs* Evilness at hand!
[06:55 AM]  Corwyn Allen: Ginger, TaraLi, Tsai is my little sister
[06:55 AM]  Ginger Goldlust wonders how many kitties sis could fit under that most voluminous skirt
[06:55 AM]  metta Botanical: ((ah, there is my bow *smiles happily at having found her lost bow*))
[06:55 AM]  Corwyn Allen: She's also a Chinese scholar.
[06:55 AM]  Ginger Goldlust: nice to meet you Tsai :)
[06:55 AM]  Suzanne Logan: Anisa is sleeping
[06:55 AM]  Tsai Jie: evil is nut half of the whole, you are just overbalanced in your Yin Tarali
[06:55 AM]  Tsai Jie: get out in the sun more
[06:55 AM]  Corwyn Allen: Yes, she is. I pinged her and got her away msg
[06:56 AM]  Suzanne Logan: Basil is coming - we can wait a few minutes..
[06:56 AM]  Corwyn Allen: Well, it's not yet 0700 anyway
[06:56 AM]  -: Fifty Three: Evidence
[06:56 AM]  -: A.
[06:56 AM]  -: If I have even just a little sense,
[06:56 AM]  -: I will walk on the main road and my only fear will be of straying from it.
[06:56 AM]  -: Keeping to the main road is easy,
[06:56 AM]  -: But people love to be sidetracked.
[06:56 AM]  -:
[06:56 AM]  -: When the court is arrayed in splendor,
[06:56 AM]  -: The fields are full of weeds,
[06:56 AM]  -: And the granaries are bare.
[06:56 AM]  -: Some wear gorgeous clothes,
[06:56 AM]  -: Carry sharp swords,
[06:56 AM]  -: And indulge themselves with food and drink;
[06:56 AM]  -: They have more possessions than they can use.
[06:56 AM]  -: They are robber barons.
[06:56 AM]  -: This is certainly not the way of Tao.
[06:56 AM]  -: *****
[06:56 AM]  -: B.
[06:56 AM]  -: The great Way is easy,
[06:56 AM]  -: yet people prefer the side paths.
[06:56 AM]  -: Be aware when things are out of balance.
[06:56 AM]  -: Stay centered within the Tao.
[06:56 AM]  -:
[06:56 AM]  -: When rich speculators prosper
[06:56 AM]  -: While farmers lose their land;
[06:56 AM]  -: when government officials spend money
[06:56 AM]  -: on weapons instead of cures;
[06:56 AM]  -: when the upper class is extravagant and irresponsible
[06:56 AM]  -: while the poor have nowhere to turn-
[06:56 AM]  -: all this is robbery and chaos.
[06:56 AM]  -: It is not in keeping with the Tao.
[06:56 AM]  -: *****
[06:56 AM]  -: C.
[06:56 AM]  -: When temptation arises to leave the Tao,
[06:56 AM]  -: banish temptation, stay with the Tao.
[06:56 AM]  -: When the court has adornments in profusion,
[06:56 AM]  -: the fields are full of weeds,
[06:56 AM]  -: and the granaries are bare.
[06:56 AM]  -: It is not the way of nature to carry a sword,
[06:56 AM]  -: nor to over-adorn oneself,
[06:56 AM]  -: nor to have more than a sufficiency
[06:56 AM]  -: of fine food and drink.
[06:56 AM]  -: He who has more possessions than he can use,
[06:56 AM]  -: deprives someone who could use them well.
[06:56 AM]  -: *~*END*~*
[06:56 AM]  -:
[06:56 AM]  Suzanne Logan: so we will start with 54!
[06:58 AM]  Suzanne Logan: this may be also called Cultivating Insight
[06:58 AM]  Taras Balderdash: Back. Wow I thought we were on 52. I'm way behind.
[06:59 AM]  Suzanne Logan: we had only women here last time....well... Corwyn was here but very quiet
[06:59 AM]  Corwyn Allen: Actually I think we're going to start on 54 today.
[06:59 AM]  Suzanne Logan: we burned through a few
[06:59 AM]  Corwyn Allen: We did 53 last week.
[06:59 AM]  Suzanne Logan: *laughs
[06:59 AM]  TaraLi Jie: The first thing that came to mind, reading about not getting off the way....
[06:59 AM]  Suzanne Logan bows to honor you
[06:59 AM]  metta Botanical takes a humble bow
[06:59 AM]  Corwyn Allen: That's what happens when our resident historian is away.
[06:59 AM]  TaraLi Jie: Was Frost's "Two Roads"
[06:59 AM]  Suzanne Logan: ohayou gozaimasu Basil-san and welcome!
[06:59 AM]  Basil Brooks: hi all
[06:59 AM]  Ginger Goldlust bows with respect and smiles
[06:59 AM]  Corwyn Allen: Ohyao Basil-san
[06:59 AM]  Corwyn Allen bows and smiles.
[06:59 AM]  Basil Brooks: ty ...I am honored to b here
[06:59 AM]  metta Botanical smiles at the arriving Basil
[07:00 AM]  Suzanne Logan: now what a great group we have today!!
[07:00 AM]  Suzanne Logan: so let us begin
[07:00 AM]  Basil Brooks: indeed ;-)))
[07:00 AM]  Suzanne Logan: today we welcome Tsai jie, Corwyn's mei mei *smiles
[07:01 AM]  Basil Brooks: Hi Tsai
[07:01 AM]  alial Allen: greetings , may i join pls?
[07:01 AM]  Taras Balderdash: * Nods to Basil over the copy of the Dao De Jing as he frantically does catch up reading.
[07:01 AM]  Tsai Jie: Xing hu, nice to meet you all
[07:01 AM]  Suzanne Logan: and the way we do this is I recite 3 interpretations of the Tao then we discuss
[07:01 AM]  TaraLi Jie: Hi, alial!
[07:01 AM]  alial Allen: hello all
[07:01 AM]  Suzanne Logan: ah good morning Alia-san...yes please come in!
[07:01 AM]  Suzanne Logan bows to honor you
[07:01 AM]  Corwyn Allen: Ohayo Alial-san
[07:01 AM]  Corwyn Allen bows respectfully.
[07:01 AM]  metta Botanical takes a humble bow
[07:02 AM]  alial Allen bows respectfully
[07:02 AM]  Suzanne Logan: there is another cushion next to Ginger I believe
[07:02 AM]  Ginger Goldlust bows with respect and smiles
[07:02 AM]  Suzanne Logan: or there *laughs
[07:02 AM]  metta Botanical did not mean to confuse
[07:02 AM]  alial Allen: thank you
[07:02 AM]  Basil Brooks: hi alial
[07:02 AM]  Basil Brooks: so good to have u join us
[07:02 AM]  Suzanne Logan: so nice to have everyone...we are just getting started... oh and Erica!!
[07:02 AM]  Suzanne Logan bows to honor you
[07:02 AM]  Erica Core bows with respect and smiles
[07:02 AM]  metta Botanical smiles softly as Erica arrives
[07:03 AM]  Erica Core: are kids welcome here?
[07:03 AM]  Suzanne Logan: Erica welcome let me get you a seat by me
[07:03 AM]  alial Allen: it is my honor to be here:)
[07:03 AM]  TaraLi Jie: Greetings, Erica!
[07:03 AM]  Basil Brooks: hi erica have my seat please
[07:03 AM]  Ginger Goldlust bows with respect and smiles
[07:03 AM]  Corwyn Allen: Erica
[07:03 AM]  Erica Core: thank you
[07:03 AM]  Corwyn Allen: I have a kid sized kneeling cushion fo ryou by Okasan if you want
[07:03 AM]  TaraLi Jie: Greetings, Xing!
[07:03 AM]  Xing Zsun: Hello everyone :)
[07:03 AM]  Suzanne Logan: good morning Xing-san!
[07:03 AM]  Suzanne Logan bows to honor you
[07:04 AM]  Taras Balderdash: Ni hao!
[07:04 AM]  Suzanne Logan: oh a child seat would be good too
[07:04 AM]  metta Botanical is sure Okasan will put out additional seating
[07:04 AM]  Erica Core: oh which one is that?
[07:04 AM]  Tsai Jie: what a great group. Wanshang Hao everyone!
[07:04 AM]  Corwyn Allen: The blue one
[07:04 AM]  Corwyn Allen: Behind Okasan
[07:04 AM]  Basil Brooks: hi Xing ;-))))
[07:04 AM]  Corwyn Allen: I'll spin it when you sit
[07:04 AM]  Ginger Goldlust bows with respect and smiles
[07:04 AM]  Erica Core: :)
[07:04 AM]  metta Botanical: ((wonders at her errant gesture this morning))
[07:04 AM]  Corwyn Allen: Wheeee
[07:04 AM]  metta Botanical takes a humble bow
[07:04 AM]  Basil Brooks: what a awesome group!!!
[07:04 AM]  Corwyn Allen: Now you're not sunk into the pillos
[07:04 AM]  Suzanne Logan: Basil you can come back and sit
[07:05 AM]  Xing Zsun: Looks like I'm ging corwyn the dead eye...
[07:05 AM]  Suzanne Logan: *smiles yes it is!!
[07:05 AM]  Suzanne Logan: *laughs
[07:05 AM]  Xing Zsun: ty
[07:05 AM]  Corwyn Allen: Ni hao Xing-san
[07:05 AM]  Corwyn Allen: Welcome back
[07:05 AM]  Erica Core: oh um, I haven't read the book though. I didn't know where to get it
[07:05 AM]  Xing Zsun: Ni hao
[07:05 AM]  Suzanne Logan: that is alright... we use a combination of translations... I recite and you can make notecards if you like....
[07:05 AM]  Suzanne Logan: I do 3 versions and then we discuss...
[07:05 AM]  Erica Core: :)
[07:06 AM]  Suzanne Logan: and so let us begin
[07:06 AM]  -: Fifty Four: Cultivating Insight
[07:06 AM]  -:
[07:06 AM]  -: What is firmly established cannot be uprooted.
[07:06 AM]  -: What is firmly grasped cannot slip away.
[07:06 AM]  -: It will be honored from generation to generation.
[07:06 AM]  -:
[07:06 AM]  -: Cultivate Virtue in yourself,
[07:06 AM]  -: And Virtue will be real.
[07:06 AM]  -: Cultivate it in the family,
[07:06 AM]  -: and Virtue will abound.
[07:06 AM]  -: Cultivate it in the village,
[07:06 AM]  -: And Virtue will grow.
[07:06 AM]  -: Cultivate it in the nation,
[07:06 AM]  -: And Virtue will be abundant.
[07:06 AM]  -: Cultivate is in the universe,
[07:06 AM]  -: And Virtue will be everywhere.
[07:06 AM]  -:
[07:06 AM]  -: Therefore look at the body as body;
[07:06 AM]  -: Look at the family as family;
[07:07 AM]  -: Look at the village as village;
[07:07 AM]  -: Look at the nation as nation;
[07:07 AM]  -: Look at the universe as universe;
[07:07 AM]  -:
[07:07 AM]  -: How do I know the universe is like this?
[07:07 AM]  -: By looking!
[07:07 AM]  -: *****
[07:07 AM]  -: B.
[07:07 AM]  -: Whoever is planted in the Tao
[07:07 AM]  -: will not be rooted up.
[07:07 AM]  -: Whoever embraces the Tao
[07:07 AM]  -: will not slip away.
[07:07 AM]  -: Her name will be held in honor
[07:07 AM]  -: from generation to generation.
[07:07 AM]  -:
[07:07 AM]  -: Let the Tao be present in your life
[07:07 AM]  -: and you will become genuine.
[07:07 AM]  -: Let it be present in your family
[07:07 AM]  -: and your family will flourish.
[07:07 AM]  -: Let it be present in your country
[07:07 AM]  -: and your country will be an example
[07:07 AM]  -: to all countries in the world.
[07:07 AM]  -: Let it be present in the universe
[07:07 AM]  -: and the universe will sing.
[07:07 AM]  -:
[07:07 AM]  -: How do I know this is true?
[07:07 AM]  -: By looking inside myself.
[07:07 AM]  -: *****
[07:07 AM]  -: C.
[07:07 AM]  -: That which is firmly rooted,
[07:07 AM]  -: is not easily torn from the ground;
[07:07 AM]  -: just as that which is firmly grasped,
[07:07 AM]  -: does not slip easily from the hand.
[07:07 AM]  -: The virtue of the Tao is real,
[07:07 AM]  -: if cultivated in oneself;
[07:07 AM]  -: when loved in the family, it abounds;
[07:08 AM]  -: when throughout the village, it will grow;
[07:08 AM]  -: and in the nation, be abundant.
[07:08 AM]  -: When it is real universally,
[07:08 AM]  -: virtue is in all people.
[07:08 AM]  -: All things are microcosms of the Tao;
[07:08 AM]  -: the world a microcosmic universe,
[07:08 AM]  -: the nation a microcosm of the world,
[07:08 AM]  -: the village a microcosmic nation;
[07:08 AM]  -: the family a village in microcosmic view,
[07:08 AM]  -: and the body a microcosm of one's own family;
[07:08 AM]  -: from single cell to galaxy.
[07:08 AM]  -: ~~END~~
[07:09 AM]  Suzanne Logan: In this verse we see repeated thoughts... again the theme of the whole is a sum of its parts as well as the Virtue in the first rendition refers to the Tao itself
[07:09 AM]  Tsai Jie: A is the Feng Gia-fu translation, yes? Who are the other two by if I may ask
[07:09 AM]  Suzanne Logan: hai
[07:09 AM]  Suzanne Logan: the other two are
[07:09 AM]  Suzanne Logan: B =
[07:09 AM]  Suzanne Logan: and C
[07:10 AM]  Suzanne Logan: is via Stan Rosenthal
[07:10 AM]  Suzanne Logan: on 2/8/09
[07:10 AM]  alial Allen: (what chapter pls?)
[07:11 AM]  Taras Balderdash: The fist thing that jumps out from thss chapter is the similarity to a Confucian classic called the Da Xue, the Great Learning. There too ther is a progression from cultivating the self out to harmonizing the world as a whole.
[07:11 AM]  Suzanne Logan: we are on 54
[07:11 AM]  alial Allen nods
[07:11 AM]  Tsai Jie: ah. thank you.
[07:11 AM]  Suzanne Logan: I have a question for you
[07:12 AM]  Tsai Jie: for me?
[07:12 AM]  Suzanne Logan: here we see the concept of being rooted in something
[07:12 AM]  Suzanne Logan: for all
[07:12 AM]  Tsai Jie: LOL oh for all of us
[07:12 AM]  Suzanne Logan: so here...being rooted in the Tao
[07:12 AM]  Suzanne Logan: and the results of doing that are good...
[07:13 AM]  Suzanne Logan: do you think being rooted in any consistent spiritual approach brings similar results or is the Tao unique in this
[07:13 AM]  Suzanne Logan: ((there is no *right* answer))
[07:13 AM]  Corwyn Allen: Then yes, and no. ;)
[07:14 AM]  Suzanne Logan moves Erica closer to her side *smiles
[07:14 AM]  TaraLi Jie: I think what it's doing is emphasizing that there is no real separations in the world - we are all part of one greater wholeness - and that acting as though we aren't is the cause of our problems - and in that respect, I don't think the Tao is unique...
[07:14 AM]  Ginger Goldlust beliees when people resonate to a similar frequency, it can be very powerful... and potential is there for much good, and also for those seeking unity there is vulnerability to manipulation (as in cults)
[07:14 AM]  TaraLi Jie: Paganism certainly carries that thread as well...
[07:14 AM]  Suzanne Logan: good answer TaraLi
[07:14 AM]  Tsai Jie: I would argue that the Dao is not a "spiritual" approach as for instance Buddhism or Christianity is
[07:14 AM]  Corwyn Allen: And yet....
[07:14 AM]  Tsai Jie: Dao is a state of understanding
[07:15 AM]  Suzanne Logan: and Ginger... I like the word "resonate"
[07:15 AM]  Corwyn Allen: Music is made up of many frequensice
[07:15 AM]  metta Botanical: maybe my mind is just in an odd place this morning but this sent me searching for verse 18 ([7:06] Suzanne Logan: When the great Tao is forgotten,
Kindness and morality arise.
[7:06] Suzanne Logan: When wisdom and intelligence are born,
The great pretense begins.
[7:06] Suzanne Logan: When there is no peace within the family,
Filial piety and devotion arise.
[7:07] Suzanne Logan: When the country is confused and in chaos,
Loyal ministers appear.) The reason my mind is comparing those is that the message of 18 seemed to include that things like Virtue should be inherent in us and that when we need to consciously work on them it is a time of being artificial. Perhaps, virtue does not come under that category and is it just, as I said, my mind in an odd place.
[07:15 AM]  Taras Balderdash: 42 is ALWAYS the right answer. But yes, I thinnk it goes beyond the spiritual and includes all spheres. Note that there is a reference to theannual sacrifices to ancestors, just like te yearly harvest, this connects people to the family, the land, the word they inhabit.
[07:15 AM]  Corwyn Allen: And harmony only occurs when frequencies work together.
[07:15 AM]  Corwyn Allen: So to have only one frequency is not the Tao
[07:15 AM]  Taras Balderdash: Good point, Tsai. It is more down-to-earth.
[07:16 AM]  Tsai Jie: Whay Laozi is speaking of here is worldly connectednes
[07:16 AM]  Tsai Jie: the Chinese say "the family is the cement that holds society together"
[07:16 AM]  Suzanne Logan nods... that connectivity is vital to this verse...
[07:16 AM]  Tsai Jie: Laozi is saying that each small part is a pice of a greater whole and cannot act without affecting that larger part
[07:17 AM]  Suzanne Logan: and then how do we know... how can we see all this by looking inside ourselves as this suggests?
[07:17 AM]  Corwyn Allen: Yes, like the harmonics in music
[07:17 AM]  TaraLi Jie: *nods* A tribe would be a family of families - a state a family of tribes, a nation a family of states, the world a family of nations....
[07:17 AM]  Ginger Goldlust: nods to TaraLi
[07:18 AM]  Tsai Jie: in Translation C rosenthal likens it to the western idea of macrocosm and microcosm in an attempt to make it easier to understand even tho that strays from the toriginal words
[07:18 AM]  Tsai Jie: and Yes, Corwyn, like the harmonics.
[07:18 AM]  Tsai Jie giggles
[07:18 AM]  alial Allen: we are all one big family , earth is within heaven , and heaven within earth
[07:18 AM]  Ginger Goldlust: if we seek itinside ourselves, and others do as well, possibly by following our example, then it multiplies
[07:18 AM]  Taras Balderdash: But note that nowhere in here is the silly saying: It takes a village to raise a child. A child raised by a village is a street urchin. It takes a family to raise a child.
[07:19 AM]  Tsai Jie: closer than that even alial...
[07:19 AM]  Corwyn Allen nods to Taras
[07:19 AM]  Tsai Jie: as Taras says it is centerd in family
[07:19 AM]  TaraLi Jie nods vigorously to Taras...
[07:19 AM]  Tsai Jie: despite the fact that Daism is not a religion,
[07:19 AM]  Tsai Jie: it adopts the ancient customs of ancestor respect in the temples
[07:20 AM]  Ginger Goldlust: among AmerIndians, where that saying comes from, the village is a family
[07:20 AM]  Ginger Goldlust: is not silly
[07:20 AM]  TaraLi Jie: Good point, Ginger...
[07:20 AM]  Tsai Jie: I thing the saying does apply Ginger, and you make a good point
[07:20 AM]  Taras Balderdash: Well, there i religious Daoism, but it has precious little to do with the philosophical terms of the Dao De Jing
[07:20 AM]  Suzanne Logan raises her hand
[07:21 AM]  Suzanne Logan: the Religious Taoism is called Tao-chiao
[07:21 AM]  Tsai Jie: the religious trappings are much like everything else in China...absorbed along the way.
[07:21 AM]  Suzanne Logan: it took place during the two Han dynasties from 206 BC to 220 AD
[07:21 AM]  Suzanne Logan: considered the Tao Te Ching as divine teaching, using specific interpretations of Lao Tzu's work as one of its own primary scriptures. The Religious Taoists deified Lao Tzu, describing him as the 'T'ai Shang Lao-chun'. In later centuries, Religious Taoism was to become a very powerful movement throughout China, where it was widely practiced, at least until the middle of the twentieth century.
[07:21 AM]  Taras Balderdash: And there s a nice temple ove in Rieul if you want to look into it. Cijian Temple
[07:22 AM]  Suzanne Logan: but we can consider this text how we each like to
[07:22 AM]  Tsai Jie: Daoism adopts the older gods... and post Han dynasty adopts reincarnation to from the buddhist tradition
[07:23 AM]  Xing Zsun: sorry to but in but there is a taoist temple in sl , if you haven't already seen it i'd be glad to pass on the lm
[07:23 AM]  Xing Zsun: snap!!!
[07:23 AM]  Tsai Jie: I would be interested
[07:23 AM]  Suzanne Logan: that would be good Xing-san
[07:23 AM]  Tsai Jie: xie-xie ni
[07:23 AM]  Corwyn Allen: YEs, please Xing Zsun
[07:23 AM]  Taras Balderdash: Yes, please do!
[07:23 AM]  alial Allen: pls:)
[07:23 AM]  Suzanne Logan: also for our discussion.. I would like us to look at the first part of the verse
[07:24 AM]  Suzanne Logan: What is firmly established cannot be uprooted
[07:24 AM]  Suzanne Logan: Firmly grasped cannot slip away
[07:24 AM]  Xing Zsun: I'lll find it and send it on :)
[07:24 AM]  TaraLi Jie: Kind of contradictory there....
[07:25 AM]  Basil Brooks: ty Xing
[07:25 AM]  Corwyn Allen: xie xie
[07:25 AM]  Taras Balderdash: Yes, firmly planted and well protected. The two portions of raising a plant.
[07:25 AM]  Suzanne Logan: is "grasped" meaning understood?
[07:25 AM]  Corwyn Allen: Arigato gozaimasu
[07:26 AM]  Tsai Jie: not in the original Chinese
[07:26 AM]  Taras Balderdash: It's one of several interpretations
[07:26 AM]  Tsai Jie: it is litterally "to hold"
[07:26 AM]  Suzanne Logan: a domo arigato
[07:26 AM]  Taras Balderdash: Tasi, could it also be 'to cover'?
[07:26 AM]  Xing Zsun gave you The Cijian Temple (Daoist), Mieum (74, 133, 82).
[07:26 AM]  Ginger Goldlust: ty Xing :)
[07:26 AM]  Corwyn Allen smiles at having two Chinese scholars at hand
[07:26 AM]  Suzanne Logan: tell me Tsai... how those two lines fit?
[07:26 AM]  Ginger Goldlust: "grasp" as in undertand?
[07:26 AM]  metta Botanical: Domo Xing
[07:27 AM]  Ginger Goldlust: not grab and pull out
[07:27 AM]  Tsai Jie: first you must remember that there are no direct copies of Laozi's words
[07:27 AM]  Tsai Jie: so we work from the writings of his diciples
[07:29 AM]  Xing Zsun: I've been visiting there for quite a while but only met the designer a couple of days ago I think she would be very pleased to get more visitors as she remarked there is very little daoist presence in SL
[07:29 AM]  Corwyn Allen: Much like the New Testament treats the words Christ. Interpretations from his disciples.
[07:29 AM]  Xing Zsun: Perhaps we shouls all make it a day trip
[07:29 AM]  Corwyn Allen: Hai
[07:29 AM]  TaraLi Jie: Aye, Corwyn - and it always seems to be a problem with the greatest teachers...
[07:30 AM]  Ginger Goldlust: /mer nominates Metta to be one of the schoolbus monitors ;)
[07:30 AM]  Suzanne Logan: that is a great idea.... infact if you wish we could go after we complete our discussion of this verse
[07:30 AM]  TaraLi Jie: *ROFLMAO*
[07:30 AM]  Tsai Jie: If you remember that China is an agrarian society first and foremost the idea of expressing concepts in agricultual terms like planting is simple
[07:30 AM]  Suzanne Logan: ah... see that does help Tsai
[07:30 AM]  metta Botanical glances quietly at sis while thinking of Okasan's chairs
[07:30 AM]  Ginger Goldlust: yes ty Tsai :)
[07:31 AM]  metta Botanical: Okasan has a set of chairs she uses for tours
[07:31 AM]  Tsai Jie: but I think you can also apply it as Ginger suggested.
[07:32 AM]  Taras Balderdash: The old commentator Wang Bi says of the first two verses: He consolidates his root and then only he takes care of his stem and branches. Tha is why "he will not be uprooted" and....
[07:32 AM]  Tsai Jie: as Taras says ... there are many interpretations and as Suzanne says there are no wrong answers
[07:32 AM]  Taras Balderdash: He has no craving for having more and manages what he is capable of. That is why "will not be stripped of anything.
[07:33 AM]  Tsai Jie: Wang Bi is one of the Han commentators who was known for his brilliant interpretations of the I Ching
[07:34 AM]  Tsai Jie: have you read Ho Shang Kun, Taras?
[07:34 AM]  Taras Balderdash: Yes, a key commentator in the Daoist tradition. Pretty amazing since he didn't live long at all.
[07:34 AM]  Suzanne Logan: where we live we have some pretty obnoxious weeds...they are tight in the ground...firmly rooted. There is no dislodging them and even if you try, a small piece left in the earth creates a new plant. Then when I am harvesting, I grasp the item firmly - so that I take all of it and not break the skin, like a tomato.. I want to take part of the stem to protect the fruit. I can see that the Tao is like this. Once I have it. It stays with me. And taking it I wish to protect it and take it firmly but gently in my grasp
[07:34 AM]  Tsai Jie: Wang Bi takes the more spiriual approach
[07:34 AM]  Taras Balderdash: No, I haven't
[07:35 AM]  Tsai Jie: Ho Shang Kun takes the more practical
[07:35 AM]  Tsai Jie: reads Laozi litterally
[07:35 AM]  Tsai Jie: plant the crops firmly and they wont wash away in flood
[07:35 AM]  Tsai Jie: hold on to what you own and the landlord cannot take it away
[07:36 AM]  Suzanne Logan nods and share it with your family and lands and they will be filled
[07:36 AM]  Taras Balderdash: Words for modern times. :)
[07:36 AM]  Suzanne Logan: hai *smiles
[07:36 AM]  TaraLi Jie: Yep...
[07:36 AM]  Tsai Jie bows her head to Taras
[07:36 AM]  Suzanne Logan: so a proposal.....
[07:36 AM]  Suzanne Logan: would we like to go on a field trip?
[07:37 AM]  TaraLi Jie votes yes.
[07:37 AM]  Suzanne Logan: or go on to the next verse
[07:37 AM]  TaraLi Jie: Oooh, tough call!
[07:37 AM]  Xing Zsun: yes
[07:37 AM]  Taras Balderdash: Only if we can pack a huge picnic lunch.
[07:37 AM]  Suzanne Logan: *laughs
[07:37 AM]  Ginger Goldlust: phew ...thought with all the talk of farming we were going to be volunteerd to go "pick up rocks" and "pull weeds"
[07:37 AM]  Basil Brooks: ;-))))
[07:37 AM]  alial Allen: you said : He consolidates his root and then only he takes care of his stem and branches. Tha is why "he will not be uprooted" and.... what does that mean will not be uprooted pls?
[07:38 AM]  Ginger Goldlust has heard of the wonderous chairs... and thinks just watching us all on them would make for a good outing!
[07:38 AM]  Tsai Jie: think again of family, Alial
[07:38 AM]  Tsai Jie: your root is your parents
[07:38 AM]  Tsai Jie: your ancestors
[07:38 AM]  Tsai Jie: you are the stem
[07:39 AM]  Tsai Jie: your children, descendants, are your branches
[07:39 AM]  Tsai Jie: on this Laozi and Kongfuzi agree
[07:39 AM]  Taras Balderdash: Yes, for once. lol
[07:39 AM]  Corwyn Allen: And their children the fruit that drops leaving seeds to grow a new root.
[07:39 AM]  Tsai Jie: first care for your elders
[07:40 AM]  alial Allen: inside me i have root stem and branches also:) ok you are talking microcosmos ,, i understend now (sorry for my english )
[07:40 AM]  Tsai Jie: then care for youself so you can
[07:40 AM]  Ginger Goldlust is then confused more, ad the verse talked of centralizing your own virtue first
[07:40 AM]  Tsai Jie: thiird produce sons
[07:40 AM]  Taras Balderdash: Another peoples kids are weeds. Got it!
[07:40 AM]  Corwyn Allen grins at Taras
[07:40 AM]  Tsai Jie laughs delightedly
[07:40 AM]  Basil Brooks: hahahaha!
[07:40 AM]  TaraLi Jie: *ROFL* Yes, Taras!!!!
[07:40 AM]  Corwyn Allen: So you're saying it takes a village with a weedwhacker?
[07:41 AM]  Taras Balderdash: ROFL
[07:41 AM]  Tsai Jie: aptly put
[07:41 AM]  Ginger Goldlust snorts and giggles behind her hand
[07:41 AM]  Suzanne Logan thinks we've lost it
[07:41 AM]  Suzanne Logan: *laughs
[07:41 AM]  Ginger Goldlust: maybe a field trip would be good after all
[07:41 AM]  TaraLi Jie: BBIAF :( Gotta run to the restroom.
[07:41 AM]  Corwyn Allen: I will visit the temple another time. I have poetry reading after Tao class.
[07:41 AM]  Taras Balderdash: Yes, yes. Don't forget to pack thesake
[07:42 AM]  Suzanne Logan: we have 20 minutes
[07:42 AM]  Corwyn Allen: 18
[07:42 AM]  Suzanne Logan throws a pillow at Corwyn
[07:42 AM]  Suzanne Logan: we started late :P
[07:42 AM]  Tsai Jie: maybe Suzanne would read another stanza?
[07:42 AM]  Corwyn Allen ducks and quacks
[07:42 AM]  Suzanne Logan: hai hai... lets continue and then we can go on our own
[07:42 AM]  -:
[07:43 AM]  -: Fifty Five:  Mysterious Virtue
[07:43 AM]  -: A.
[07:43 AM]  -: He who is filled with Virtue is like a newborn child.
[07:43 AM]  -: Wasps and serpents will not sting him;
[07:43 AM]  -: Wild beasts will not pounce upon him;
[07:43 AM]  -: He will not be attacked by birds of prey.
[07:43 AM]  -: His bones are soft, his muscles weak,
[07:43 AM]  -: But his grip is firm.
[07:43 AM]  -: He had not experiences the union of man and woman, but is whole.
[07:43 AM]  -: His manhood is strong.
[07:43 AM]  -: He screams all day without becoming hoarse.
[07:43 AM]  -: This is perfect harmony.
[07:43 AM]  -:
[07:43 AM]  -: Knowing harmony is constancy.
[07:43 AM]  -: Knowing constancy is enlightenment.
[07:43 AM]  -:
[07:43 AM]  -: It is not wise to rush about.
[07:43 AM]  -: Controlling the breath causes strain.
[07:43 AM]  -: If too much energy is used, exhaustion follows.
[07:43 AM]  -: This is not the way of Tao.
[07:43 AM]  -: Whatever is contrary to Tao will not last long.
[07:43 AM]  -: *****
[07:43 AM]  -: B.
[07:43 AM]  -: He who is in harmony with the Tao
[07:43 AM]  -: is like a newborn child.
[07:43 AM]  -: Its bones are soft, its muscles are weak,
[07:43 AM]  -: but its grip is powerful.
[07:43 AM]  -: It doesn't know about the union
[07:44 AM]  -: of male and female,
[07:44 AM]  -: yet its penis can stand erect,
[07:44 AM]  -: so intense is its vital power.
[07:44 AM]  -: It can scream its head off all day,
[07:44 AM]  -: yet it never becomes hoarse,
[07:44 AM]  -: so complete is its harmony.
[07:44 AM]  -:
[07:44 AM]  -: The Master's power is like this.
[07:44 AM]  -: He lets all things come and go
[07:44 AM]  -: effortlessly, without desire.
[07:44 AM]  -: He never expects results;
[07:44 AM]  -: thus he is never disappointed.
[07:44 AM]  -: He is never disappointed;
[07:44 AM]  -: thus his spirit never grows old.
[07:44 AM]  -: *****
[07:44 AM]  -: C.
[07:44 AM]  -: He who has virtue is like a newborn child,
[07:44 AM]  -: free from attack by those who dwell
[07:44 AM]  -: in the way of nature, the way of the Tao.
[07:44 AM]  -: The bones of the newborn child are soft,
[07:44 AM]  -: his muscles supple, but his grip is firm;
[07:44 AM]  -: he is whole, though not knowing he was born
[07:44 AM]  -: of the creative and receptive way.
[07:44 AM]  -: The way of nature is in the child,
[07:44 AM]  -: so even when he shouts all day,
[07:44 AM]  -: his throat does not grow hoarse or dry.
[07:44 AM]  -: From constancy, there develops harmony,
[07:44 AM]  -: and from harmony, enlightenment.
[07:44 AM]  -: It is unwise to rush from here to there.
[07:45 AM]  -: To hold one's breath causes the body strain;
[07:45 AM]  -: exhaustion follows
[07:45 AM]  -: when too much energy is used,
[07:45 AM]  -: for this is not the natural way.
[07:45 AM]  -: He who is in opposition to the Tao
[07:45 AM]  -: does not live his natural years.
[07:45 AM]  -: *END*
[07:45 AM]  metta Botanical glares at sis before she mentions this verse reminds her of me
[07:45 AM]  Xing Zsun: tao is the face we had before we were born
[07:46 AM]  Tsai Jie: Taras, would you like to talk about the concept of Te (Virtue) here?
[07:46 AM]  metta Botanical: and then demurely asks about "[07:43 AM] -: He screams all day without becoming hoarse." why is screaming all day given as an example of thing to be desired?
[07:47 AM]  Ginger Goldlust: no sis, the infant is able to scream all day because he is supple yet firm in his constancy...the infant/child, not us
[07:47 AM]  Taras Balderdash: Well, not really. I was hoping you would. lol
[07:47 AM]  Tsai Jie: think of the list of abilities here as the rewards of having Te, Ginger
[07:47 AM]  Taras Balderdash: I don't know if it's virtue, so much as vitality in this chapter.
[07:47 AM]  Tsai Jie: remember that the book is called the Dao Te Jing
[07:47 AM]  Taras Balderdash: The reserve of energy that is used up in the process of life
[07:47 AM]  Tsai Jie: nott virtue as we think of it in the west (ie: goodness)
[07:47 AM]  Taras Balderdash: Use it too quickly and you burn out.
[07:48 AM]  Tsai Jie: but the essence of a thing.... its "virtues"
[07:48 AM]  Taras Balderdash: Yes, quite so.
[07:49 AM]  Tsai Jie: every creature possesses abilities
[07:49 AM]  Tsai Jie: "virtues"
[07:49 AM]  Tsai Jie: if the Dao is the universal
[07:49 AM]  Taras Balderdash: Closely related to its nature
[07:49 AM]  Tsai Jie: the Te (virtual) is the specific, or individual
[07:50 AM]  Taras Balderdash: But something that is more like a source from outside, somethig thatyou can cultivate.
[07:50 AM]  Tsai Jie: the 2 verses 53 and 54 go hand in hand
[07:50 AM]  Tsai Jie: as 53 reminds that the outer reflects the inner and the future reflects the past
[07:51 AM]  Taras Balderdash: What does everoyone think of the idea of birds of prey not siezing infants? Is this an idealization, a turn of phrase?
[07:51 AM]  Corwyn Allen: I think the whole ting about a child being free from attack by "virtue" of being a child is turn of phrase.
[07:52 AM]  Taras Balderdash: Babies, like drunks, bounce and flow, an so are less prone to injury in falls, but I dont know that scorpions avoid them.
[07:52 AM]  Corwyn Allen recalls the tale of the scorpian and the fox.
[07:52 AM]  Corwyn Allen: scorpion
[07:52 AM]  Suzanne Logan: this is where the Tao is difficult if taken too literally I think
[07:53 AM]  Tsai Jie smiles
[07:53 AM]  Suzanne Logan: the point being that if we are filled with the Tao....we are protected from some of the pestering things we could think of that could rob us of energy
[07:53 AM]  Taras Balderdash: So then TV commentators have the De, the 'virtue', since they too are able to scream all day and yet not be hoarse?
[07:53 AM]  Suzanne Logan: to learn the flow is strength
[07:53 AM]  Tsai Jie: the Chinese parent of ancient times would say if a child came to harm
[07:53 AM]  Tsai Jie: that it was destiny
[07:54 AM]  Suzanne Logan: do you not think, Tsai that the first part of this verse is an illustration?
[07:54 AM]  Tsai Jie: that these things happen because we are not strong, not fortunate
[07:54 AM]  Taras Balderdash: And they wouldput scorpoins on the clothing to make the real ones keep away.
[07:54 AM]  Ginger Goldlust has learned the only way to be safe from the pesterings of the TV commentators is to unplug the TV :)
[07:54 AM]  TaraLi Jie: The modern, irreverant version of that being "Think of it as evolution in action."
[07:55 AM]  Tsai Jie: I think it can be taken metaphorically
[07:55 AM]  Suzanne Logan: It seems to me that it is meant to illustrate the part about constancy, enlightenment, energy management, wisdom... adherence to the principles of the Tao?
[07:55 AM]  metta Botanical is personally going through a very rigid, tightly held phase in her life (sort of "ice maiden" in many ways) right now so what I see when I read this verse is that one should not hold oneself in too tightly.
[07:56 AM]  Tsai Jie: the only difference Suzanne, is in how one applies it to oneself
[07:56 AM]  Tsai Jie: exactly, metta, take it as you need it
[07:56 AM]  Suzanne Logan nods... so... the first part of the verse....He who is filled with the Tao is like a newborn child
[07:56 AM]  Suzanne Logan: then it explains what the newborn child is like...
[07:56 AM]  Tsai Jie: in China these things are argued over tea for their philosphic elements
[07:57 AM]  Corwyn Allen: FOrgive me all, I must go prepare for the poetry session. Please don't get up. As always it was a joy to see you all. Thank you.
[07:57 AM]  Suzanne Logan: then finishes with whatever is contrary to the Tao will not last long
[07:57 AM]  Tsai Jie: and spoken as gosple when the even they describe occurs
[07:57 AM]  metta Botanical smiles as she sees that in this verse but being in the phase she is in now, she feels resentment at being "told" by the verse that she should loosen up - yet, she knows she comes to Tao each week precisely because she often finds in the verses things she needs to hear.
[07:57 AM]  Suzanne Logan: Ja mata Hogosha-san
[07:57 AM]  Suzanne Logan bows to honor you
[07:57 AM]  Xing Zsun: Be safe
[07:58 AM]  Suzanne Logan: *smiles it is 7:57 and some seconds before our time is up...
[07:58 AM]  Taras Balderdash: I see an idealization of one thing at the exense of others here.
[07:58 AM]  Suzanne Logan: *laughs.. so Corwyn left early and we should all reprimand him for that in our Tao-ist voices
[07:58 AM]  Xing Zsun: Is this a record turn out?
[07:58 AM]  Taras Balderdash: A child is achild becasue it is appropriate to the needs fo the time
[07:58 AM]  Suzanne Logan: it is!!
[07:58 AM]  TaraLi Jie: I counted 11 people...
[07:58 AM]  Xing Zsun: gooooood!
[07:58 AM]  Tsai Jie smiles and nods
[07:58 AM]  Ginger Goldlust: smiles @Taras, is why a group discussion is so good for this, varying perspectives
[07:59 AM]  Suzanne Logan listens to Taras.. thinking yes... and how the child hollers too
[07:59 AM]  Taras Balderdash: If the child's characteristics occur in an adult, tha is to be out of balance, outof place.
[07:59 AM]  Taras Balderdash: So I don't think it's somethng we should seek to return to, as, apparently, Laozi call us to.
[07:59 AM]  Ginger Goldlust: and yet we can leanr from the child
[08:00 AM]  TaraLi Jie: But... perhaps some of what we think of as childish characteristics are really human characteristics that we *should* cultivate.
[08:00 AM]  Ginger Goldlust: find ways to make our acceptance and understanding work better for us by looking to the childs ways
[08:00 AM]  Taras Balderdash: Once again, I read Laozi with interest, but it is Kongzi who has the real value.
[08:00 AM]  TaraLi Jie: That we lose as we "grow up" because we are told they are childish...
[08:00 AM]  Suzanne Logan nudges Taras (whispers) guess what you get to do when we are finished with the Tao?
[08:00 AM]  Xing Zsun: well I have enjoyed this today, see you all hopefully next week
[08:00 AM]  Suzanne Logan: thank you all for coming!!!
[08:01 AM]  alial Allen: thank you very much
[08:01 AM]  Suzanne Logan: this was wonderful!
[08:01 AM]  Ginger Goldlust bows with respect and smiles
[08:01 AM]  Tsai Jie: Thank you all for letting me attend today
[08:01 AM]  metta Botanical takes a humble bow
[08:01 AM]  Taras Balderdash: Drink heavily?
[08:01 AM]  Suzanne Logan: domo Metta-san you are so good
[08:01 AM]  Tsai Jie bows: xie xie nimen
[08:01 AM]  Suzanne Logan: um *thinks of Konzi
[08:01 AM]  Suzanne Logan: *kongzi
[08:01 AM]  Basil Brooks: ty..the tao's wisdom is everywhere today ...God bless!!!
[08:01 AM]  alial Allen bows with respect
[08:01 AM]  metta Botanical smiles at Okasan, grateful that we have Amatsu to attend
[08:01 AM]  Taras Balderdash: Thanks, everyone!
[08:01 AM]  Suzanne Logan: have a wonderful day!!
[08:02 AM]  Tsai Jie bows to the hostess, Suzanne.
[08:02 AM]  Erica Core bows with respect and smiles
[08:02 AM]  alial Allen: and you:)
[08:02 AM]  Ginger Goldlust: bright paths everyone
[08:02 AM]  Tsai Jie: have a good day
[08:02 AM]  Suzanne Logan quietly picks up the tea things
[08:02 AM]  Taras Balderdash: Bye all!
[08:02 AM]  TaraLi Jie: Later, everyone!
[08:02 AM]  Tsai Jie bows to Taras for his wisdom
[08:02 AM]  metta Botanical quietly retires to a corner to prepare the notes as she does not wish to continue to let them slip as she has been. *wishes all a good week*
[08:02 AM]  Tsai Jie: thank you laoshi
[08:03 AM]  Ginger Goldlust: alial that is a lovely kimono
[08:03 AM]  Suzanne Logan climbs the stairs to her office
[08:03 AM]  Tsai Jie: zia jian
[08:03 AM]  alial Allen: thank you
[08:03 AM]  Suzanne Logan: always to everyone ...please feel at home here
[08:03 AM]  alial Allen: it is the creation of my sl brother
[08:03 AM]  Suzanne Logan bows to honor you

Tao chap 51-53, 3/8/09

[06:58 AM]  Corwyn Allen bows and smiles.
[06:58 AM]  metta Botanical: good morning all
[06:58 AM]  Corwyn Allen: Ohayo Metta
[06:59 AM]  Suzanne Logan bows to honor you
[06:59 AM]  Corwyn Allen: You're looking rather ethereal this morning
[06:59 AM]  Suzanne Logan: good morning Metta-san
[06:59 AM]  Corwyn Allen: Very cloudlike
[06:59 AM]  metta Botanical: Good Morning, Okasan
[06:59 AM]  Corwyn Allen: Ah, there you are.
[06:59 AM]  Suzanne Logan: there she is!
[06:59 AM]  metta Botanical: oh that looks likes an oxy dress other than I don't think she does kimonos
[06:59 AM]  Suzanne Logan: *smiles
[07:01 AM]  Corwyn Allen: brb
[07:01 AM]  Suzanne Logan: this is from Falln Angels
[07:01 AM]  Suzanne Logan: he gives me gifts from time to time *smiles
[07:01 AM]  Suzanne Logan: has a new line of kimono out
[07:02 AM]  Suzanne Logan accepted your inventory offer.
[07:02 AM]  Suzanne Logan: oh thank you for that Metta-san *smiles
[07:02 AM]  metta Botanical smiles
[07:02 AM]  Suzanne Logan bows to honor you
[07:02 AM]  metta Botanical: hello sister
[07:02 AM]  Corwyn Allen bows respectfully.
[07:02 AM]  Corwyn Allen: Ohayo Bee-san
[07:02 AM]  Suzanne Logan: ohayou gozaimasu Bee-san!
[07:02 AM]  Bee Blessed: goodmorning
[07:02 AM]  metta Botanical: I am surprised you are here as Bee, you will get a zillion IMs
[07:02 AM]  metta Botanical: whoops, sorry, meant to send that to my sister in IM
[07:03 AM]  Bee Blessed: I apologise, my regular laptop is not behaving, so I am on the inferior one...may be very slow to respond
[07:03 AM]  metta Botanical: Sis and I use our alts for class as our main accounts get buried in IMs and distract us
[07:03 AM]  Suzanne Logan: oh I know how that is...
[07:04 AM]  Suzanne Logan: *smiles please come and comfortable -
[07:04 AM]  Suzanne Logan: tea for anyone or fruit? please help yourselves ... I'm sorry just finishing a business IM
[07:05 AM]  Bee Blessed bows to honor her casmates and takes her seat
[07:06 AM]  Bee Blessed: *classmates
[07:06 AM]  Suzanne Logan: how is everyone today?
[07:06 AM]  metta Botanical: looking for our lost hour?
[07:07 AM]  Suzanne Logan: *laughs... yes...I have not had enough sleep this week as it is
[07:07 AM]  Suzanne Logan: are any others coming?
[07:07 AM]  Suzanne Logan: oh! *smiles
[07:07 AM]  Suzanne Logan bows to honor you
[07:07 AM]  Bee Blessed: I have a friedn coming in'I am afraid I may have kanded her on the table
[07:07 AM]  Suzanne Logan: good morning!
[07:08 AM]  Bee Blessed growlz at her typos
[07:08 AM]  Bee Blessed: different keyboard
[07:08 AM]  Bee Blessed: Kayleigh, welcome!
[07:08 AM]  Kayleigh Galthie: ood morning.
[07:08 AM]  Bee Blessed: I am sorry for landing you in a ba spot
[07:08 AM]  Kayleigh Galthie: Ah. it happens.
[07:08 AM]  Kayleigh Galthie: I
[07:08 AM]  Kayleigh Galthie: I hope I'm dressed okay.
[07:08 AM]  metta Botanical smiles as Kayleigh arrives.
[07:09 AM]  Kayleigh Galthie: Thank you for inviting me.
[07:09 AM]  metta Botanical: any type of respectful clothing is acceptable, Kayleigh
[07:09 AM]  Suzanne Logan settles are fine Kayleigh-san *smiles
[07:09 AM]  Bee Blessed: I will attempt to make introductions understanding that I am caught in lag
[07:09 AM]  Kayleigh Galthie: :)))))
[07:10 AM]  Bee Blessed: Kayleigh is a "kindred spirit" that I met thru sis, Metta, while shopping and hanging about :)
[07:10 AM]  Bee Blessed: Kayleigh, may I introduce you to Suzanne who moderates this bookclub?
[07:10 AM]  Kayleigh Galthie: Nice to meet you Suzanne.
[07:10 AM]  metta Botanical: I spotted the Tao quote in her profile and said "ah, this is someone I would like to get to know, even more so when I looked at her first life section"
[07:10 AM]  Bee Blessed: and also to Metta, who is another kindred spirit I was hopeing you would meet this morning
[07:11 AM]  Suzanne Logan: hajimemashite *smiles nice to meet you
[07:11 AM]  Bee Blessed: and the rest of the "gang"/students of Tao te ching
[07:11 AM]  Kayleigh Galthie: Yes, Metta. I looked at your profile. You appear to be a very interesting person.
[07:11 AM]  Bee Blessed: (none of which I can ee this morning )
[07:11 AM]  metta Botanical looks around and seems that we are missing Taras and Basil this morning
[07:11 AM]  metta Botanical: Thank you, Kayleigh.
[07:11 AM]  Bee Blessed: Corwyn, and Xing
[07:12 AM]  Bee Blessed: ah I see no Taras or TaraLi this morning
[07:12 AM]  Bee Blessed: the hours change may have delayed them ;)
[07:12 AM]  Corwyn Allen: Hajemmashite Galthie-san
[07:12 AM]  Corwyn Allen: I was up way too early this morning
[07:12 AM]  Corwyn Allen: Because of the time change
[07:12 AM]  Suzanne Logan nods. . .we will all feel a little sleepy I think.
[07:13 AM]  Kayleigh Galthie: I'm sorry.
[07:13 AM]  metta Botanical: as to Tarali, he does not seem to have gotten out of bed yet this morning, as you know too, sis
[07:13 AM]  Bee Blessed: nods
[07:13 AM]  Kayleigh Galthie: I didn't see you two.
[07:13 AM]  Suzanne Logan thinks about some cool water for Tarali
[07:13 AM]  Bee Blessed: perhaps we will stay on track instead of going off on a silly side track :)
[07:13 AM]  Suzanne Logan: we should probably begin yes
[07:13 AM]  metta Botanical smiles at Okasan.
[07:13 AM]  Bee Blessed chuckles... where should I apply the icecubes, Suzanne?
[07:14 AM]  metta Botanical: Yes, verse 51 this week but I do hope Taras will arrive, he always provides very useful historical perspective for our studies
[07:14 AM]  Suzanne Logan thinks... starts to speak....blushes and then says demurely...why on his tongue
[07:14 AM]  metta Botanical chuckles
[07:14 AM]  Suzanne Logan: i have not heard from Taras-san at all this week...but I think they are travelling
[07:15 AM]  metta Botanical: ah
[07:15 AM]  Bee Blessed shanps her fingers in a "drat" motion, under the table so as to not distract
[07:15 AM]  Suzanne Logan: so...let us begin...
[07:15 AM]  Suzanne Logan turns to Kayleigh - I recite 3 interpretations and then we discuss, Kayleigh-san
[07:15 AM]  -: Fifty One - The Nourishment of the Tao
[07:15 AM]  -: A.
[07:15 AM]  -: All things arise form Tao.
[07:15 AM]  Kayleigh Galthie: Thank you.
[07:15 AM]  -: They are nourished by Virtue.
[07:15 AM]  -: They are formed from matter.
[07:15 AM]  -: They are shaped by environment.
[07:16 AM]  -: Thus the ten thousand things all respect Tao and honor Virtue.
[07:16 AM]  -: REspect of Tao and honor of Virtue are not demanded,
[07:16 AM]  -: But they are in the nature of things.
[07:16 AM]  -:
[07:16 AM]  -: Therefore all things arise form Tao.
[07:16 AM]  -: By Virtue they are nourished,
[07:16 AM]  -: Developed and care for,
[07:16 AM]  -: SHeltered, comforted,
[07:16 AM]  -: Grown and protected.
[07:16 AM]  -: Creating without claiming,
[07:16 AM]  -: Doing with taking credit,
[07:16 AM]  -: Guiding without interfering,
[07:16 AM]  Suzanne Logan: should be doing without taking credit
[07:16 AM]  -: This is Primal Virtue.
[07:16 AM]  -: ****
[07:16 AM]  -: B.
[07:16 AM]  -: Every being in the universe
[07:16 AM]  -: is an expression of the Tao.
[07:17 AM]  -: It springs into existence,
[07:17 AM]  -: unconscious, perfect, free,
[07:17 AM]  -: takes on a physical body,
[07:17 AM]  -: lets circumstances complete it.
[07:17 AM]  -: That is why every being
[07:17 AM]  -: spontaneously honors the Tao.
[07:17 AM]  -:
[07:17 AM]  -: The Tao gives birth to all beings,
[07:17 AM]  -: nourishes them, maintains them,
[07:17 AM]  -: cares for them, comforts them, protects them,
[07:17 AM]  -: takes them back to itself,
[07:17 AM]  -: creating without possessing,
[07:17 AM]  -: acting without expecting,
[07:17 AM]  -: guiding without interfering.
[07:17 AM]  -: That is why love of the Tao
[07:17 AM]  -: is in the very nature of things.
[07:17 AM]  -: *****
[07:17 AM]  -: C.
[07:17 AM]  -: All physical things arise
[07:17 AM]  -: from the principle which is absolute;
[07:17 AM]  -: the principle which is the natural way.
[07:17 AM]  -: All living things are formed by being,
[07:17 AM]  -: and shaped by their environment,
[07:17 AM]  -: growing if nourished well by virtue;
[07:17 AM]  -: the being from non-being.
[07:17 AM]  -: All natural things respect the Tao,
[07:17 AM]  -: giving honour to its virtue,
[07:18 AM]  -: although the Tao does not expect,
[07:18 AM]  -: nor look for honour or respect.
[07:18 AM]  -: The virtue of the natural way
[07:18 AM]  -: is that all things are born of it;
[07:18 AM]  -: it nourishes and comforts them;
[07:18 AM]  -: develops, shelters and cares for them,
[07:18 AM]  -: protecting them from harm.
[07:18 AM]  -: The Tao creates, not claiming credit,
[07:18 AM]  -: and guides without interfering.
[07:18 AM]  -: ~*END*~
[07:18 AM]  -:
[07:18 AM]  Suzanne Logan: a very nurturing verse!
[07:19 AM]  Bee Blessed agrees
[07:19 AM]  Suzanne Logan: I like in B how it says that every being spontaneously honors the Tao
[07:20 AM]  Suzanne Logan: thoughts?
[07:21 AM]  Suzanne Logan: someone say something so I know I am here please
[07:21 AM]  Bee Blessed chuckles and treaches for tea
[07:21 AM]  Suzanne Logan's hands shakily reach for a cup of tea thinking this si a ghost room
[07:21 AM]  Bee Blessed: yes this goes nicely with the verses about "doing nothing" that we honor the tao and all life by just being
[07:22 AM]  Tea cup Tomesode whispers: Ah! Steaming Green Tea!
[07:22 AM]  Suzanne Logan: domo Bee-san! *sighs in relief
[07:22 AM]  Corwyn Allen makes scary wooooo noises in Okasan's ear
[07:23 AM]  Suzanne Logan: *giggles*
[07:23 AM]  Tea cup Tomesode whispers: Ah! Steaming Green Tea!
[07:23 AM]  Tea cup Tomesode whispers: Ah! Steaming Green Tea!
[07:23 AM]  Suzanne Logan: is there much to say about this one?
[07:23 AM]  Tea cup Tomesode whispers: Ah! Steaming Green Tea!
[07:23 AM]  metta Botanical: maybe this is lack of sleep but for some reason today, C seems to me more like A - things like "07:17 AM] -: All living things are formed by being,
[07:17 AM] -: and shaped by their environment,
[07:17 AM] -: growing if nourished well by virtue;
[07:17 AM] -: the being from non-being." sound to me more like A usually is worded
[07:24 AM]  Suzanne Logan smiles... I like A
[07:24 AM]  Corwyn Allen: Yes, there isn't much to this one that isn't fairly clear.
[07:24 AM]  Suzanne Logan: for some reason I am thinking of raising of children in this
[07:24 AM]  metta Botanical hears that Tarali is now awake and sis is reading to him, so he is here with us in spirit at least
[07:24 AM]  Kayleigh Galthie: I hope everyone will understand why I am being quiet this time. I must digest this.....................
[07:24 AM]  Suzanne Logan: shaped by the environment
[07:25 AM]  metta Botanical: of course, Kayleigh, it always takes a while also to get used to the flow of a new class. We are a mixture of serious and silly in this one.
[07:25 AM]  Suzanne Logan: nourished by virtue...formed by matter
[07:25 AM]  Corwyn Allen: Whoops, we lost Xing
[07:25 AM]  Suzanne Logan blinks
[07:25 AM]  Kayleigh Galthie: It was a very comforting passage to me.
[07:25 AM]  Corwyn Allen: Hungry ghosts got her
[07:25 AM]  Suzanne Logan nods so it seems ...*kicks SL
[07:26 AM]  Suzanne Logan: hai Kayleigh-san... it even "feels" steady and soothing
[07:26 AM]  Suzanne Logan: something to rely on
[07:26 AM]  Kayleigh Galthie: Yes..........
[07:26 AM]  Bee Blessed: I found it comforting as well:) which is nice as the lrecent verses brought us to many discussions about combat...war...
[07:26 AM]  metta Botanical: yes, soothing is a good word for this one, as I read it the word that came to my mind also was Gaia
[07:26 AM]  Corwyn Allen: brb
[07:26 AM]  Suzanne Logan nods to Hogosha-sugar
[07:27 AM]  Suzanne Logan ducks the flying pillow
[07:27 AM]  Suzanne Logan: I am wondering would you like to go on to the next one?
[07:27 AM]  metta Botanical: if you wish, Okasan
[07:28 AM]  Suzanne Logan smiles... I think so
[07:28 AM]  -: Fifty Two: Returning to the Source
[07:28 AM]  Bee Blessed: TaraLi is unlikley to comment via me this morning as he finds the hour too early for thought
[07:28 AM]  Suzanne Logan hands TaraLi-san a double shot of espresso
[07:29 AM]  -: A.
[07:29 AM]  -: The beginning of the universe
[07:29 AM]  -: Is the mother of all things.
[07:29 AM]  -: Knowing the mother, one also know the sons.
[07:29 AM]  -: Knowing the sons, yet remaining in touch with the mother,
[07:29 AM]  -: Brings freedom from the fear of death.
[07:29 AM]  -:
[07:29 AM]  -: Keep your mouth shut,
[07:29 AM]  -: Guard the senses,
[07:29 AM]  -: And life is ever full.
[07:29 AM]  -: Open your mouth,
[07:29 AM]  -: Always be busy,
[07:29 AM]  -: And life is beyond hope.
[07:29 AM]  -:
[07:29 AM]  -: Seeing the small is insight,
[07:29 AM]  -: Yielding to force is strength.
[07:29 AM]  -: Using the outer light, return to insight,
[07:29 AM]  -: And in this way be saved from harm.
[07:29 AM]  -: This is learning constancy.
[07:29 AM]  -: *****
[07:29 AM]  -: B.
[07:29 AM]  -: In the beginning was the Tao.
[07:29 AM]  -: All things issue from it;
[07:29 AM]  -: all things return to it.
[07:29 AM]  -:
[07:29 AM]  -: To find the origin,
[07:29 AM]  -: trace back the manifestations.
[07:30 AM]  -: When you recognize the children
[07:30 AM]  -: and find the mother,
[07:30 AM]  -: you will be free of sorrow.
[07:30 AM]  -:
[07:30 AM]  -: If you close your mind in judgements
[07:30 AM]  -: and traffic with desires,
[07:30 AM]  -: your heart will be troubled.
[07:30 AM]  -: If you keep your mind from judging
[07:30 AM]  -: and aren't led by the senses,
[07:30 AM]  -: your heart will find peace.
[07:30 AM]  -:
[07:30 AM]  -: Seeing into darkness is clarity.
[07:30 AM]  -: Knowing how to yield is strength.
[07:30 AM]  -: Use your own light
[07:30 AM]  -: and return to the source of light.
[07:30 AM]  -: This is called practicing eternity.
[07:30 AM]  -: *****
[07:30 AM]  -: C.
[07:30 AM]  -: The virtue of Tao governs its natural way.
[07:30 AM]  -: Thus, he who is at one with it,
[07:30 AM]  -: is one with everything which lives,
[07:30 AM]  -: having freedom from the fear of death.
[07:30 AM]  -: Boasting, and hurrying hither and thither,
[07:30 AM]  -: destroy the enjoyment of a peace filled life.
[07:30 AM]  -: Life is more fulfilled by far,
[07:30 AM]  -: for he who does not have desire,
[07:30 AM]  -: for he does not have desire,
[07:30 AM]  -: has no need of boasting.
[07:30 AM]  -: Learn to see the insignificant and small,
[07:31 AM]  -: grow in wisdom and develop insight,
[07:31 AM]  -: that which is irrevocable,
[07:31 AM]  -: do not try to fight,
[07:31 AM]  -: and so be saved from harm.
[07:31 AM]  -: *~END*~
[07:31 AM]  -:
[07:31 AM]  Suzanne Logan: OH my ... I should have memorized this verse this week
[07:31 AM]  Suzanne Logan: may I tell you a story of my week?....I'll try to be brief
[07:32 AM]  Suzanne Logan: and then perhaps you can tell me how easy it would have been to apply this verse
[07:32 AM]  Suzanne Logan: in RL my mother was admitted to the hospital very very ill.... she is 89, has some dementia but she is communicative
[07:32 AM]  metta Botanical quietly listens
[07:32 AM]  Suzanne Logan: and very very sweet....
[07:33 AM]  Suzanne Logan: the doctors exhibited much extreme age prejudice instead of age respect
[07:33 AM]  Suzanne Logan: one even told me, "you know, pneumonia can be an old person's best friend."
[07:33 AM]  Bee Blessed frowns
[07:33 AM]  Suzanne Logan: said do you really think your mother would like to live like this?
[07:34 AM]  Suzanne Logan: well.. she was not herself...suffering from a gi bleed, blood loss and anemia
[07:34 AM]  Suzanne Logan: I had to fight to get her the blood and fluids she needed, make sure she was nursed back with a gentle diet...they really were ready to give up on her
[07:34 AM]  Bee Blessed: living in a state of peace, sweet, not worrying...wouldn't we all like to live like that
[07:34 AM]  Suzanne Logan: said she couldn't swallow because of the dementia. but her throat was one huge ulcer
[07:35 AM]  Suzanne Logan: we all know what a sore throat feels like, but I couldn't get them to see that common sense
[07:35 AM]  Suzanne Logan: *sighs....
[07:35 AM]  Suzanne Logan: so now...inlight of this verse..
[07:36 AM]  A group member named Steluna Silverspar gave you Wisdom  Center Stonehenge , Pandara (99, 15, 21).
[07:36 AM]  Suzanne Logan: you can see.. I lost my peace because i chose to make judgments... and still I am frustrated with it all
[07:36 AM]  Suzanne Logan: this verse is more about the letting go for me.. I will ponder it
[07:36 AM]  Bee Blessed is startled....
[07:36 AM]  metta Botanical gently hugs Okasan and very much likes this verse herself
[07:37 AM]  Suzanne Logan: oh the outcome for my mother.... she eats and swallows just fine now as the medicines the GI doctor gave have helped
[07:37 AM]  Suzanne Logan: dementia causing her swallowing problems my foot!
[07:37 AM]  Bee Blessed: the Dr's were judgemental... and inappropriate, for you to react defensively of your mother was a natural thing
[07:37 AM]  Suzanne Logan: hai... but now i need a massage! *grins
[07:37 AM]  Bee Blessed: and it perhaps taught them a valuable lesson
[07:38 AM]  Bee Blessed gives Suzanne a firm but gentle hug
[07:38 AM]  Suzanne Logan: I think I needed to fight for her... and that not doing would have been fatal for her
[07:39 AM]  Suzanne Logan: granted she is "up there" in age...but no need to die from something so easily corrected
[07:39 AM]  Bee Blessed: Dr's sometimes lose sight of the "quality of life" issue... they make assumptions that a persons quality is poor based on the limited data they have in front of them
[07:39 AM]  Suzanne Logan nods.. it is true Bee-san.
[07:39 AM]  Bee Blessed: you and your mother I hope have taught those particular Dr's a lesson
[07:40 AM]  Suzanne Logan: I hope so..
[07:40 AM]  Bee Blessed: and you did the right thing IMO
[07:40 AM]  Bee Blessed: but it is true you need to now let the frustration go :)
[07:40 AM]  Suzanne Logan nods hai... she is better and that is something to be happy about *smiles
[07:40 AM]  Bee Blessed: smiles
[07:41 AM]  Suzanne Logan: so you know this verse can help me to do that
[07:41 AM]  Kayleigh Galthie nods in agreement.
[07:41 AM]  Bee Blessed goes back to the verse and prepares to duck a pillow
[07:41 AM]  Bee Blessed: as [7:29] -: Open your mouth, [7:29] -: Always be busy, [7:29] -: And life is beyond hope. mad her think of sis
[07:41 AM]  Bee Blessed ducks
[07:41 AM]  Suzanne Logan: *laughs....I thought of that too!!! *ducks a pillow as well
[07:42 AM]  Bee Blessed: hmmm no response..... *worries* about delayed response when I am not ducking
[07:42 AM]  Kayleigh Galthie: ohhhhh
[07:42 AM]  Suzanne Logan: well I thought of that for my RL
[07:42 AM]  metta Botanical: actually, sis, I was thinking that part of this is very good for a profile:
[07:30 AM] -: If you keep your mind from judging
[07:30 AM] -: and aren't led by the senses,
[07:30 AM] -: your heart will find peace.
[07:43 AM]  Suzanne Logan: that is very good thought indeed
[07:43 AM]  metta Botanical: as you know, I am struggling with something in my own life now, much less serious than what Okasan is dealing with, but this verse spoke to me of what I am struggling with
[07:43 AM]  Bee Blessed understands
[07:44 AM]  Suzanne Logan: I would like to do one more if you all do not mind
[07:45 AM]  Kayleigh Galthie: Please.
[07:45 AM]  Bee Blessed: please do Okasan :)
[07:45 AM]  Suzanne Logan: *laughs... without the men here we are racing along!
[07:45 AM]  metta Botanical smiles and this this is helping her to find her answer, the fact that she is so drawn to this verse
[07:45 AM]  Suzanne Logan: *laughs behind her hand
[07:45 AM]  metta Botanical: *thinks
[07:45 AM]  Suzanne Logan: these are all good to ponder on this week perhaps for us
[07:45 AM]  Bee Blessed smiles behind her hand as well
[07:45 AM]  metta Botanical: has to add that the discussion is not as interesting though this morning, the males do add value to our class
[07:46 AM]  Bee Blessed: they do, but they would be bored perhaps by these verses, which i think appeal more to feminine sensibilities
[07:46 AM]  Suzanne Logan: I do enjoy their insight very much....and we miss them when they are not here or are here and meditating...*nudges Corwyn to no avail
[07:46 AM]  Kayleigh Galthie: Even I have recently had an experience here in sl that was hurtful.
[07:46 AM]  metta Botanical: I think there is something about the Tao that a male mindset is right for
[07:46 AM]  metta Botanical listens to Kayleigh
[07:46 AM]  Bee Blessed listens to Kayleigh
[07:46 AM]  Kayleigh Galthie: This is all very helpful in taking that hurt away.
[07:46 AM]  Suzanne Logan listens and glances gently in Kayleigh's direction
[07:47 AM]  Kayleigh Galthie: It is shifting my focus, I think.
[07:47 AM]  Bee Blessed is glad, and believes our meeting was not coincidences
[07:47 AM]  Bee Blessed: smiles
[07:47 AM]  metta Botanical: I found Tao often does that for me, gives me a perspective I need. That is why I try to never miss our Sunday morning classes.
[07:48 AM]  Bee Blessed: Suzanne, please proceed if you wish :)
[07:48 AM]  Kayleigh Galthie: Are these discussions held every Sunday morning?
[07:48 AM]  Suzanne Logan: I also like to find the quiet places in Amatsu to think about these verses...the waters and scenery are healing as well
[07:48 AM]  metta Botanical: Usually, yes
[07:48 AM]  Kayleigh Galthie: Thank you.
[07:48 AM]  Suzanne Logan: you are always welcome Kayleigh-san
[07:48 AM]  metta Botanical: on very rare occasions, Suzanne has to cancel
[07:49 AM]  Kayleigh Galthie: I'll keep that in mind, thank you.
[07:49 AM]  Suzanne Logan smiles and quietly shuffles her papers....
[07:49 AM]  -: Fifty Three: Evidence
[07:49 AM]  -: A.
[07:49 AM]  -: If I have even just a little sense,
[07:49 AM]  -: I will walk on the main road and my only fear will be of straying from it.
[07:49 AM]  -: Keeping to the main road is easy,
[07:49 AM]  -: But people love to be sidetracked.
[07:49 AM]  -:
[07:49 AM]  -: When the court is arrayed in splendor,
[07:49 AM]  -: The fields are full of weeds,
[07:49 AM]  -: And the granaries are bare.
[07:49 AM]  -: Some wear gorgeous clothes,
[07:49 AM]  -: Carry sharp swords,
[07:49 AM]  -: And indulge themselves with food and drink;
[07:49 AM]  -: They have more possessions than they can use.
[07:49 AM]  -: They are robber barons.
[07:49 AM]  -: This is certainly not the way of Tao.
[07:50 AM]  -: *****
[07:50 AM]  Suzanne Logan: Wow he could be speaking of America today!
[07:50 AM]  -: B.
[07:50 AM]  -: The great Way is easy,
[07:50 AM]  -: yet people prefer the side paths.
[07:50 AM]  -: Be aware when things are out of balance.
[07:50 AM]  -: Stay centered within the Tao.
[07:50 AM]  -:
[07:50 AM]  -: When rich speculators prosper
[07:50 AM]  -: While farmers lose their land;
[07:50 AM]  -: when government officials spend money
[07:50 AM]  -: on weapons instead of cures;
[07:50 AM]  -: when the upper class is extravagant and irresponsible
[07:50 AM]  -: while the poor have nowhere to turn-
[07:50 AM]  -: all this is robbery and chaos.
[07:50 AM]  -: It is not in keeping with the Tao.
[07:50 AM]  -: *****
[07:50 AM]  -: C.
[07:50 AM]  -: When temptation arises to leave the Tao,
[07:50 AM]  -: banish temptation, stay with the Tao.
[07:51 AM]  -: When the court has adornments in profusion,
[07:51 AM]  -: the fields are full of weeds,
[07:51 AM]  -: and the granaries are bare.
[07:51 AM]  -: It is not the way of nature to carry a sword,
[07:51 AM]  -: nor to over-adorn oneself,
[07:51 AM]  -: nor to have more than a sufficiency
[07:51 AM]  -: of fine food and drink.
[07:51 AM]  -: He who has more possessions than he can use,
[07:51 AM]  -: deprives someone who could use them well.
[07:51 AM]  -: *~*END*~*
[07:51 AM]  -:
[07:51 AM]  Suzanne Logan: oh my!
[07:51 AM]  Bee Blessed: Oh My so true!
[07:52 AM]  Bee Blessed: this verse is aimd at us today! how things have been lately here in the US
[07:52 AM]  Kayleigh Galthie: hahahaha
[07:52 AM]  metta Botanical smiles at the arriving cat
[07:53 AM]  Bee Blessed smiles at pet kitty and makes a clicking gesture with eher fingers.. inviting kitty for a pet
[07:53 AM]  Suzanne Logan: it is really amazing to me... too
[07:53 AM]  Bee Blessed rests her hand carefully on kitty and strokes the silky fur carefully
[07:54 AM]  metta Botanical gently nudges kitty to my first pick in my profile
[07:54 AM]  metta Botanical: and then quietly returns to her reading of this verse
[07:54 AM]  Bee Blessed sees how a lovely kitty, friends to talk to and a cup of tea are all she needs this morning
[07:55 AM]  Suzanne Logan: *smiles...
[07:55 AM]  Bee Blessed scritches under the chinny chin chin
[07:55 AM]  Suzanne Logan: good morning Aki-san..
[07:55 AM]  Suzanne Logan: so to this verse then
[07:56 AM]  metta Botanical finishes reading and thinks this verse also talks to the question she is struggling with this week as her question deals with balancing material and spiritual sides
[07:58 AM]  metta Botanical: I am still trying to find my niche on SL, my place where I can be who I am with what matters to me spiritually and yet not be so focused on the spiritual that I become unbalanced. Things on here seem to be either very spiritual or very material, I am trying to find a healthy middle path.
[07:58 AM]  Suzanne Logan thinks you just talked about Amatsu
[07:58 AM]  Bee Blessed thins Obama might have used this vere in his campaign :)
[07:59 AM]  metta Botanical: Very interesting response, Okasan
[07:59 AM]  Suzanne Logan: you may have to become a resident here...
[07:59 AM]  Suzanne Logan: *smiles
[07:59 AM]  metta Botanical: Amatsu is part of my exploration as I try to find my niche
[08:00 AM]  metta Botanical: that is why Tiny is in the girls' club
[08:00 AM]  Suzanne Logan: I am glad to hear that... I ever want it to be a peaceful place..
[08:00 AM]  metta Botanical: I need balance though as I can be to drawn to a monastic lifestyle easily.
[08:00 AM]  metta Botanical: *too
[08:00 AM]  Suzanne Logan: we are at an end of our time, please be watching for upcoming events.. we have an OOC St. Patricks Day Dance on Friday
[08:01 AM]  Suzanne Logan: see that balances *winks

Tao chapter 50, 3/1/09

[06:59 AM]  Anisa Nadir takes a humble bow
[06:59 AM]  Anisa Nadir: Konnichiwa Ginger San
[06:59 AM]  metta Botanical: hello Basil
[06:59 AM]  Xing Zsun: Hello Ginger
[07:00 AM]  Basil Brooks: hi metta ;-)))
[07:00 AM]  Basil Brooks: Hi all
[07:00 AM]  Corwyn Allen bows and smiles.
[07:00 AM]  Ginger Goldlust: greetngs Basil
[07:00 AM]  Anisa Nadir takes a humble bow
[07:00 AM]  Corwyn Allen: Konichiwa Basil, Metta.
[07:01 AM]  Suzanne Logan: and Metta-san... Ohayou gozaimasu!
[07:01 AM]  Suzanne Logan bows to honor you
[07:01 AM]  Anisa Nadir: Konnichiwa Brooks and Botanical San
[07:01 AM]  Basil Brooks: namaste'
[07:01 AM]  metta Botanical quietly enters after leaving her shoes outdoors and bows her head as she respectfully greets all
[07:01 AM]  Suzanne Logan: everyone looks so beautiful and handsome today depending on their gender *grins
[07:01 AM]  metta Botanical: Then quietly (and very belatedly) slips Okasan the notes from last week
[07:01 AM]  Ginger Goldlust: thank you Suzanne...yourself included of course
[07:01 AM]  Ginger Goldlust: that is a lovely color on you
[07:02 AM]  Suzanne Logan bows to honor you
[07:02 AM]  Corwyn Allen bows respectfully.
[07:02 AM]  metta Botanical smiles happily as she sees Taras is here this week
[07:02 AM]  Corwyn Allen: Nihau ma Taras.
[07:02 AM]  Taras Balderdash: Hello mainly invisible people!
[07:02 AM]  Ginger Goldlust: greetings Taras-san
[07:02 AM]  Taras Balderdash: Greetings!
[07:02 AM]  Suzanne Logan: Taras-san! good to see you ... Ni hao!
[07:02 AM]  Corwyn Allen makes invisible rabbit ears behind Taras' head
[07:02 AM]  Taras Balderdash: *adjusts rabbit ears and can now see Corwyn
[07:02 AM]  Basil Brooks gave you Oriental fan.
[07:03 AM]  Suzanne Logan takes the parchmet from Metta whispering a domo and bowing with a smile
[07:03 AM]  Ginger Goldlust giggles behind her hand, finding in it a lovely fan..."thank you Basil"
[07:03 AM]  metta Botanical: Thank you, Basils
[07:03 AM]  metta Botanical: *Basil
[07:03 AM]  Suzanne Logan: please all come and sit *smiles
[07:03 AM]  Basil Brooks: you are most welcome
[07:03 AM]  Taras Balderdash: ao off
[07:03 AM]  metta Botanical sees more seats appear .. or were they here? and quietly sits next to Basil
[07:03 AM]  Suzanne Logan: would anyone like tea?
[07:04 AM]  Xing Zsun: Getting hot in here :)
[07:04 AM]  Suzanne Logan: thank you Basil-san for the fan!
[07:04 AM]  Ginger Goldlust: /ao off
[07:04 AM]  Taras Balderdash: I would, thank you, Suza-san
[07:04 AM]  Basil Brooks: a small gift ;-)))
[07:04 AM]  Corwyn Allen: Taras, tell me.
[07:04 AM]  Corwyn Allen: If Suza gets a call.
[07:04 AM]  Corwyn Allen: Will she answer the Suza-phone?
[07:05 AM]  Suzanne Logan smiles and pours a cup for Taras... holding back her sleeve exposing a little of her rest
[07:05 AM]  Suzanne Logan: wrist
[07:05 AM]  Taras Balderdash: lol
[07:05 AM]  Suzanne Logan: phone?
[07:05 AM]  Suzanne Logan: oh.. ouch!!!
[07:05 AM]  Suzanne Logan throws a pillow at Corwyn.. so early for that!
[07:05 AM]  Taras Balderdash: Yes, and no doubt the ring tone is a march.
[07:05 AM]  Corwyn Allen: Well, that is the monthe we're in after all.
[07:05 AM]  Taras Balderdash: Ah, thank you, Basil
[07:06 AM]  Ginger Goldlust giggles
[07:06 AM]  Basil Brooks: you are very welcome
[07:06 AM]  Corwyn Allen: Domo arigato gosaimasu Brroks-san
[07:06 AM]  Suzanne Logan: *sighs and rolls her eyes... *whispers something to Anisa....
[07:06 AM]  Ginger Goldlust: Ty Corwyn, I need some silliness this morning
[07:06 AM]  Taras Balderdash: *braces for the barrage of pillows no doubt heading south
[07:06 AM]  Basil Brooks: I made it myself
[07:06 AM]  Basil Brooks: brb
[07:07 AM]  Suzanne Logan: very nicely done *smiles
[07:07 AM]  Ginger Goldlust: it is very pretty Basil
[07:08 AM]  Suzanne Logan smiles.. Geisha Kyoko may have an errand to run...but perhaps we can begin?
[07:08 AM]  Suzanne Logan looks pointedly at Taras-san...we missed you last week and have saved some questions for you
[07:08 AM]  Taras Balderdash: Ah, excellent. The answer is 42.
[07:09 AM]  Suzanne Logan: *laughs...the question is 48 and 49
[07:09 AM]  Corwyn Allen: We knew that
[07:09 AM]  Anisa Nadir rises up quietly and backs away smiles softly as she slips off to tend to an errond
[07:09 AM]  Corwyn Allen: The question is why?
[07:09 AM]  Xing Zsun: Life, the universe and everything?
[07:09 AM]  Suzanne Logan smiles to geisha Kyoko... hurry back
[07:09 AM]  Taras Balderdash: Computing
[07:10 AM]  Suzanne Logan: well I think our question was that we were troubled by some things....metta , ginger you remember?
[07:11 AM]  Ginger Goldlust: we were having difficulty with... not learning or embracing new things... accepting what is
[07:11 AM]  Suzanne Logan remembers the tea she was pouring for Taras-san and quickly wipes the rim handing it to him with a gentle bow
[07:11 AM]  Tea cup Tomesode whispers: Ah! Steaming Green Tea!
[07:12 AM]  Ginger Goldlust: how can one grow if you do not learn? and how is that historically practical for leaders?
[07:12 AM]  metta Botanical: yes, I remember and it is in the notes also
[07:12 AM]  Taras Balderdash: Well, it certainly....xie xie! certainly keeps to the yin way of the Dao De Jing
[07:12 AM]  Taras Balderdash: Though I think it is a bit symbolic
[07:12 AM]  Ginger Goldlust: since the Tao was written for leader's to read and follow...
[07:12 AM]  Taras Balderdash: Since if you really carry it out literally you can't read the book
[07:13 AM]  Ginger Goldlust giggles
[07:13 AM]  Taras Balderdash: It is pretty much the opposite of Confucian teaching
[07:13 AM]  Suzanne Logan: we were wondering about non-action
[07:13 AM]  Taras Balderdash: Whcih was what the actual leaders followed, at least a few of them.
[07:13 AM]  metta Botanical: It was the whole thing last week about that very passive verse - "In the pursuit of Tao, every day something is dropped.

Less and less is done
Until non-action is achieved.
When nothing is done, nothing is left undone." about how can one lead if one just lets the world float by and does nothing
[07:13 AM]  Taras Balderdash: Ah, wu wei
[07:13 AM]  Taras Balderdash: yes, confusing term
[07:14 AM]  Taras Balderdash: lots of ink spilled over that term.
[07:14 AM]  Taras Balderdash: It's not really non-action, as in not acting
[07:14 AM]  Taras Balderdash: but a kind of unattached acting
[07:14 AM]  Basil Brooks: 1000 miles starts with the 1st step
[07:14 AM]  Taras Balderdash: Very Zenny
[07:14 AM]  metta Botanical: ah, unattached, I understand
[07:14 AM]  metta Botanical: that is very different from non action
[07:15 AM]  Taras Balderdash: Sweep the walk, but not for the credit of having done it and not in a possesive way, just because it is time to sweep
[07:15 AM]  Taras Balderdash: A unity with nature.
[07:15 AM]  metta Botanical: but the way this says "less and less is done until non-action is achieved" did not sound like it was talking about detachment
[07:16 AM]  Taras Balderdash: Hm, good point
[07:16 AM]  metta Botanical: it sounded like actual non action
[07:16 AM]  Taras Balderdash: Let me take a look at the Chinese for a moment
[07:16 AM]  metta Botanical: we really needed you last week for historical perspective on verses 48 - 49
[07:16 AM]  Taras Balderdash: Perhaps you can start on 50 and I will dig a bit.
[07:16 AM]  Suzanne Logan: I think we were wondering about that.. if we had the interpretation right
[07:16 AM]  Suzanne Logan: hai... good idea... I will begin on 50 while you look for us...thank you
[07:16 AM]  Suzanne Logan: so... 50
[07:17 AM]  Suzanne Logan: just to remind you... we use three interpretations then discuss... I separate them with A B C *smiles softly
[07:17 AM]  -: Fifty THE VALUE SET ON LIFE
[07:17 AM]  -: A.
[07:17 AM]  -: Between birth and death,
[07:17 AM]  -: Three in ten are followers of life,
[07:17 AM]  -: Three in ten are followers of death,
[07:17 AM]  -: And men just passing from birth to death also number three in ten.
[07:18 AM]  -: Why is this so?
[07:18 AM]  -: Because they live their lives on the gross level.
[07:18 AM]  -:
[07:18 AM]  -: He who knows how to live can walk abroad
[07:18 AM]  -: Without fear of rhinoceros or tiger.
[07:18 AM]  -: He will not be wounded in battle.
[07:18 AM]  -: For in him rhinoceres can find no place to thrust their horn,
[07:18 AM]  -: Tigers no place  to use their claws,
[07:18 AM]  -: And weapons no place to pierce.
[07:18 AM]  -: Why is this so?
[07:18 AM]  -: Because he has no place for death to enter.
[07:18 AM]  -: ******
[07:18 AM]  -: B
[07:18 AM]  -: The Master gives himself up
[07:18 AM]  -: to whatever the moment brings.
[07:18 AM]  -: He knows that he is going to die,
[07:18 AM]  -: and he has nothing left to hold on to:
[07:18 AM]  -: no illusions in his mind,
[07:18 AM]  -: no resistances in his body.
[07:18 AM]  -: He doesn't think about his actions;
[07:18 AM]  -: they flow from the core of his being.
[07:18 AM]  -: He holds nothing back from life;
[07:18 AM]  -: therefore he is ready for death,
[07:18 AM]  -: as a man is ready for sleep
[07:18 AM]  -: after a good day's work.
[07:18 AM]  -: *******
[07:18 AM]  -: C
[07:18 AM]  -: In looking at the people, we might see
[07:18 AM]  -: that in the space twixt birth and death,
[07:18 AM]  -: one third follow life, and one third death,
[07:18 AM]  -: and those who merely pass from birth to death,
[07:18 AM]  -: are also one third of those we see.
[07:18 AM]  -: He who lives by the way of the Tao,
[07:18 AM]  -: travels without fear of ferocious beasts,
[07:18 AM]  -: and will not be pierced in an affray,
[07:18 AM]  -: for he offers no resistance.
[07:18 AM]  -: The universe is the centre of his world,
[07:18 AM]  -: so in the inner world
[07:18 AM]  -: of he who lives within the Tao,
[07:18 AM]  -: there is no place
[07:18 AM]  -: where death can enter in.
[07:18 AM]  -: ~~END~~
[07:19 AM]  Suzanne Logan: oops sorry for throwing that all out there... I will give you some time to read and ponder
[07:20 AM]  Corwyn Allen: B is a very different interpretation than the other two.
[07:20 AM]  Suzanne Logan: So a question.. the Tao is given much power in this verse
[07:21 AM]  Suzanne Logan: hmmm.. let me make sure I did that one right you are correct that seems out of order Corwyn
[07:21 AM]  Ginger Goldlust: B is like a clarification of a small part of A and C
[07:21 AM]  Suzanne Logan: that is what is on that site.. but it seems completely out of place
[07:21 AM]  metta Botanical: B is and in this case, I like B a lot.
[07:22 AM]  Basil Brooks: B holds a very important idea
[07:22 AM]  Ginger Goldlust: if the verse is about not fearing death and thus not being vulnerable to the distraction of pending death
[07:22 AM]  Corwyn Allen: B seems much more literal and simplistic
[07:23 AM]  Ginger Goldlust: there is similarity in ?A and C, just that they refer to those who do not do this... 2/3 of the people?
[07:23 AM]  Suzanne Logan listens carefully.. and begins to see the meshing of the ideas
[07:23 AM]  Suzanne Logan: lets look at the heart of the verse...the thought behind the words then
[07:23 AM]  Basil Brooks: yes it does, but all things are simple if we understand that we are spiritual beings on the planet having human expirences
[07:24 AM]  Ginger Goldlust: I see A cnd C as more literal.. do not fear claws and teeth of wild know you will die someday, and fear of these subtracts from life
[07:24 AM]  Basil Brooks: not the other way around
[07:24 AM]  Ginger Goldlust: yes Basil *smiles*
[07:24 AM]  Corwyn Allen: Or are we human beings on the planet having spiritual experiences?
[07:24 AM]  Corwyn Allen: Actually Ginger I see A and C as more metaphorical than literal.
[07:25 AM]  Basil Brooks: I miditate on this concept every day
[07:25 AM]  Ginger Goldlust: Hai, Corwyn-san you are right
[07:26 AM]  Basil Brooks: it is all good!!!
[07:26 AM]  Corwyn Allen: There are times I wish I had teh time, energy and intelligance to learn Chinese well enough to read these texts in their original context
[07:26 AM]  Ginger Goldlust: BAsil sounds like my sister a month ago *smiles*
[07:26 AM]  Suzanne Logan smiles that is why we have Taras-san
[07:26 AM]  Corwyn Allen: One thing I've gotten out of these discussions is how differently the various translators interpret Lao Tzu.
[07:26 AM]  Taras Balderdash: It only takes 30 years, Corwyn, get hot!
[07:27 AM]  Basil Brooks: i take that as a complement ;-)))
[07:27 AM]  Taras Balderdash: I have 22 years to go, unfortunately
[07:27 AM]  Corwyn Allen: If I live another 30 Taras.
[07:27 AM]  Corwyn Allen: And if I start today
[07:27 AM]  Suzanne Logan: *giggles you'll never make it
[07:28 AM]  Corwyn Allen: Not at my age.
[07:28 AM]  Suzanne Logan ducks the pillow she knows is coming her way
[07:28 AM]  Corwyn Allen: Hey, I lost a lot of good friends when that second asteroid hit
[07:28 AM]  Ginger Goldlust tosses a rubber chicken instead...
[07:28 AM]  Corwyn Allen: But, to get back to the verses....
[07:29 AM]  Corwyn Allen: I know my death is inevitible and so I do not fear it.
[07:29 AM]  Corwyn Allen: And I think that is the gist of this verse
[07:29 AM]  Ginger Goldlust nods
[07:29 AM]  Corwyn Allen: That one can simply pass through life without either living for life or death.
[07:29 AM]  Suzanne Logan: that is the point I think... but there is more
[07:29 AM]  Corwyn Allen thinks Okasan sounds like a Ginsu commercial
[07:29 AM]  Basil Brooks: fearing death is not the point or the not-point
[07:30 AM]  Suzanne Logan: the point is that if you live by the Tao you take things like life and death in a cerain manner
[07:30 AM]  Suzanne Logan: *laughs at Corwyn
[07:30 AM]  Corwyn Allen: With simple acceptance
[07:30 AM]  Corwyn Allen: That is the way of Zen
[07:31 AM]  Corwyn Allen: A quote I hear all too often and dislike because it is more often than not used as a cop out, "it is what it is" is really approprate when taken in the context of Zen.
[07:31 AM]  Basil Brooks: knowing the our physical existence here is only a parenthsis in our exsistence
[07:31 AM]  Ginger Goldlust: interesting Basil
[07:31 AM]  Corwyn Allen: Why a parenthesis?
[07:31 AM]  Corwyn Allen: Those seem to me to be asides to what is.
[07:32 AM]  Ginger Goldlust: "time out and now go and learn this"
[07:32 AM]  Corwyn Allen: Rather I would think our lives here as part of a continuation of the thought or conversation or song
[07:32 AM]  Corwyn Allen: However you look at it.
[07:32 AM]  Corwyn Allen: Ram Dass
[07:32 AM]  Corwyn Allen: Be here now
[07:32 AM]  Corwyn Allen: Here be now
[07:32 AM]  Corwyn Allen: Now be here now
[07:33 AM]  Ginger Goldlust: I like that Corwyn...our lives here as part of the song
[07:33 AM]  Ginger Goldlust: part of the pattern
[07:33 AM]  Corwyn Allen: Did you know
[07:33 AM]  Basil Brooks: just a sort period of the overall universe of life
[07:33 AM]  Corwyn Allen: that the song sung by humpback whales
[07:33 AM]  Corwyn Allen: is sung by all of them?
[07:33 AM]  Ginger Goldlust smiles
[07:33 AM]  Corwyn Allen: And that every year they drop the last "verse" and add a new one at the front?
[07:33 AM]  Suzanne Logan: really?
[07:33 AM]  Corwyn Allen: Yes
[07:33 AM]  Ginger Goldlust: wow
[07:33 AM]  Corwyn Allen: Really and truly
[07:34 AM]  Corwyn Allen: I leanred this from a scientist studying whale behavior
[07:34 AM]  Suzanne Logan: that is amazing... so who starts the verse?
[07:34 AM]  Suzanne Logan: *smiles...
[07:34 AM]  Corwyn Allen: It is unknown
[07:34 AM]  Corwyn Allen: But, that having been said
[07:34 AM]  Ginger Goldlust: the sea must be very different for a being who can hear that
[07:34 AM]  Corwyn Allen: I like to think of our existence as a song
[07:34 AM]  metta Botanical is completely losing the track of this chat but does know that overall she seems to be more in sync with Basil than Corywn on this one
[07:35 AM]  Ginger Goldlust: sishere they are in agreement :)
[07:35 AM]  Basil Brooks: ;-)))))
[07:35 AM]  Basil Brooks: Life is a wonderful thing
[07:35 AM]  Corwyn Allen: Life is a carnival, two bits a shot
[07:35 AM]  Corwyn Allen: ;)
[07:35 AM]  Corwyn Allen: Sorry
[07:35 AM]  Corwyn Allen: Old song
[07:35 AM]  Corwyn Allen: Reminiscences.
[07:35 AM]  Basil Brooks: we can learn alt from our animal spirits
[07:35 AM]  Ginger Goldlust tries not to think of Mr Spock confusing the androids by telling one he loves it and the other he hates it ...and they are identical
[07:36 AM]  Ginger Goldlust: and also tries not to think of a lovely bunch of coconuts
[07:36 AM]  Suzanne Logan: *smiles... would you like to move on to the next verse?
[07:36 AM]  Corwyn Allen: Well Basil I think this is where you and I diverge in our intepretations
[07:36 AM]  Ginger Goldlust: mind is wandering today
[07:36 AM]  metta Botanical: from what I saw - when I could still make sense of it - Basil was with me in that we are spiritual beings having a human experience, Corywn, who I have noticed, does not seem to accept reincarnation, seems to be more based in the idea of we are human beings having a spiritual experience. Is a very different perspective and can absolutely impact things like how one views verses like 50
[07:36 AM]  Corwyn Allen: I'm not much on Shamanism or deity worship
[07:36 AM]  Corwyn Allen: Animal spirits and all that.
[07:37 AM]  Corwyn Allen: My spirit is, and it is part of the whole
[07:37 AM]  Corwyn Allen: Oh, I understand shamanism and have studied it along with other forms ofr religion
[07:37 AM]  Suzanne Logan: Yes Corwyn that is back to the basics of the Tao... the whole is a sum of its parts
[07:37 AM]  Basil Brooks: ahhhh corwyn ,,, my is all the dance of life and its alll good
[07:37 AM]  Corwyn Allen: But it is because of that study I turn to Zen first and foremost
[07:37 AM]  Corwyn Allen: It makes me responsible
[07:37 AM]  Basil Brooks: the Tao is everywhere!!!
[07:37 AM]  Corwyn Allen: Well I suppose you can say that Basil
[07:38 AM]  Corwyn Allen: And if it works for you, than as John Lennon said, whatever gets you through the night.
[07:38 AM]  metta Botanical smiles at Basil's comment about it being all the dance of life and all good
[07:38 AM]  Corwyn Allen: We find meaning and substance where we can
[07:38 AM]  Ginger Goldlust: yes if one thinks :oh well, I messed up, I will get it right in the next lifetime" that could be seen as not accepting responsibility
[07:39 AM]  Corwyn Allen: Yes, implying one must believe there will be a "next" life rather than simply a continuation of this one.
[07:39 AM]  Basil Brooks: hahahahaha...i avoid responsibility whenever possible!!!
[07:39 AM]  Taras Balderdash: Ok, I've cobbled together something on verse 48. I'll give it to everyone if SL works well enough to do so.
[07:39 AM]  Ginger Goldlust: I like the way sis puts it... taking responsibility to learn/accomplish what you are supposed to so youdo not have to "repeat the lesson"
[07:39 AM]  Ginger Goldlust: thank you Taras-san
[07:40 AM]  Suzanne Logan holds out her hand for the parchment from Taras and thanks him with a smile and a nod
[07:40 AM]  Corwyn Allen: Thank you Taras
[07:40 AM]  Xing Zsun: i am still here altho I'm not saying much, very interesting, now I'm floating oh dear
[07:40 AM]  Corwyn Allen: It's the tea
[07:40 AM]  Suzanne Logan is our Zen tea
[07:40 AM]  Corwyn Allen: It has that effect
[07:40 AM]  metta Botanical: the other perspective to that, sis, is oh I mesed up so I will need work that through again - i.e., it is not a way of getting out of the lesson, but of knowing that the next lesson that comes your way you should try to get right as if you don't you have to repeat it again, in this lifetime or another. It can make you more determined to try to do things right, rather than just sliding by
[07:40 AM]  Basil Brooks: ty Taras
[07:40 AM]  Taras Balderdash gave you Chapter 48 Dao De Jing.
[07:40 AM]  metta Botanical: Thank you, Taras
[07:41 AM]  Corwyn Allen: brb. I'll catch up in a minute
[07:41 AM]  metta Botanical has noticed there does seem to often be something in the tea here ...
[07:42 AM]  metta Botanical: sees what sis typed as she was typing, sorry sis your words came in as I was typing, I had not meant to ignore them. *reads the notecard now*
[07:42 AM]  Taras Balderdash: Yes, in fac after only one cup I am hallucinating. I can see little bears with gardening tools on the other side of the room.
[07:43 AM]  Ginger Goldlust: i see them too and I did not have any tea
[07:43 AM]  Suzanne Logan: *rolls her eyes...oh you all just have over active imaginations.. *hides the little vial of special ingredients in her obi
[07:44 AM]  Taras Balderdash: Oh look, one of them is getting a massive farming subsidy for not growing something! This must be a bad dream.
[07:44 AM]  metta Botanical is struggling through the first paragraph in the notecard and things after the hexagrams, little bears sounds good but makes herself go back to the notecard as she does want to get Taras' perpective
[07:44 AM]  Suzanne Logan: did you all have a chance to read the card from Taras-san and did that answer your questions?
[07:45 AM]  Anisa Nadir slips back in quietly and smiles softly
[07:45 AM]  Suzanne Logan: welcome back Geisha Kyoko *smiles
[07:45 AM]  Anisa Nadir: a domo Okasan smiles softly
[07:46 AM]  Ginger Goldlust smiles at returning geisha
[07:46 AM]  metta Botanical finishes the notecard and tries to put it into words to make sure she understands what Taras is saying
[07:48 AM]  Suzanne Logan: I"m still puzzling on the non-action I think.. and perhaps in the historical context it is about showing non-interference?
[07:48 AM]  metta Botanical: If I understand your point, Taras, you are saying that what 48 - 49 mean is not "non-action" but rather not acting in ways that go against the natural flow. To instead act only in ways that are in harmony with what allows a smooth path for both those who rule and who are ruled to co-exist in symbiotic ways?
[07:49 AM]  Taras Balderdash: Yes, metta, that is a good summation indeed
[07:49 AM]  metta Botanical: I realize that is not the smoothest wording on my part, but hopefully is clear enough for Taras to tell me if I am understanding him
[07:49 AM]  metta Botanical: thank you, Taras
[07:49 AM]  Taras Balderdash: A harmony that let's things flow
[07:49 AM]  Taras Balderdash: but also not being attached
[07:49 AM]  Suzanne Logan looks to the time... just to remind everyone we have about 10 minutes left
[07:49 AM]  Taras Balderdash: As in the place in the Dao De Jing where it speaks of accomplishing things in such a way that the people say: 'We did it!'
[07:50 AM]  Taras Balderdash: Providing a channel for the river of action, one might call it.
[07:50 AM]  Corwyn Allen: back now
[07:50 AM]  Corwyn Allen: Caight up too more or less
[07:50 AM]  Taras Balderdash: wb
[07:50 AM]  metta Botanical: yes, to not be attached is very much a part of letting things flow as when we are attached to the outcome of our actions is when we try to divert the course of events to that which our ego feels it needs rather than letting things flow in ways that are for the highest good of all
[07:50 AM]  Suzanne Logan: welcome back Hogosha-san
[07:50 AM]  Corwyn Allen: Chuckling over farming subsidies
[07:50 AM]  Corwyn Allen: Thank you
[07:51 AM]  Taras Balderdash: And not forcing things is important.
[07:51 AM]  metta Botanical: welcome back, Corwyn
[07:51 AM]  metta Botanical: Indeed, Taras
[07:51 AM]  Taras Balderdash: :) Socialist bears. what can you do?
[07:51 AM]  Basil Brooks: I like to think of my heart beating , to help understand non action
[07:51 AM]  Taras Balderdash: Like the folk tale of the old man who pulls on the young sprouts to help them grow
[07:51 AM]  metta Botanical takes time now to look curiously around for the bears
[07:51 AM]  Taras Balderdash: They wither, of course.
[07:51 AM]  metta Botanical: ah interesting perspective, Basil
[07:52 AM]  Basil Brooks: it just does it's thing ....all the time ;-))))
[07:52 AM]  Taras Balderdash: Hm ,interesting Basil. yes, it just acts, we don't have to even think of it.
[07:53 AM]  metta Botanical: Yes, and things certainly don't usually go well for us when its flow is interrupted
[07:53 AM]  Suzanne Logan: I like that analogy
[07:53 AM]  metta Botanical continues to wonder where the bears are
[07:53 AM]  Basil Brooks: hahahahaha..indeed!
[07:53 AM]  Suzanne Logan nudges Metta and points to the table in the room
[07:53 AM]  metta Botanical sees the bears and smiles softly
[07:53 AM]  Ginger Goldlust hears from the other room...cooings of delight
[07:53 AM]  metta Botanical: ah, I am a big fan of Sway's creations
[07:54 AM]  Suzanne Logan: Johnny gave them to me for Christmas
[07:54 AM]  Taras Balderdash: Ah, there it iss. In the Hall and Ames translation of the book the term wu wei is translated: to act noncoercively. I like that translation.
[07:54 AM]  metta Botanical smiles. She has many, many wonderful items. I use many of her things and have admired many others that I do not have
[07:54 AM]  Suzanne Logan: we are nearly at the end of our time... Does anyone want to add anything more to our discussion?
[07:54 AM]  Ginger Goldlust: ((metta and I are housemates in RL))
[07:55 AM]  metta Botanical: Oh, yes "non coercively" very good word indeed
[07:56 AM]  metta Botanical: That is a whole concept that I am doing a lot of work with myself, is part of the whole "letting go" think I am working with a lot
[07:56 AM]  Corwyn Allen: Jack Flanders
[07:56 AM]  Ginger Goldlust: Hmmm?
[07:57 AM]  Suzanne Logan: domo Metta-san
[07:57 AM]  Corwyn Allen: Sorry, obscure reference.
[07:57 AM]  metta Botanical smiles at Okasan
[07:57 AM]  Corwyn Allen: Look up ZBS Foundation and the Adventures of Jack Flanders
[07:57 AM]  metta Botanical: hmmmmph, Corwyn
[07:57 AM]  Corwyn Allen smiles
[07:57 AM]  Suzanne Logan stands quietly and begins to pick up the tea things...
[07:57 AM]  Corwyn Allen: I am nothing if not obscure
[07:57 AM]  metta Botanical throws a pillow at Corywn herself for giving us an obscure reference and telling us to look it up
[07:58 AM]  Suzanne Logan nods approvingly at Metta
[07:58 AM]  Corwyn Allen: I would tell you more, but have the fun is in the journey
[07:58 AM]  metta Botanical carefully picks up her thrown pillow so as to not make more work for Oksasan
[07:58 AM]  Corwyn Allen: half
[07:58 AM]  metta Botanical: *Okasan
[07:58 AM]  Taras Balderdash: Looked it up. Looks interesting.
[07:58 AM]  Corwyn Allen: Well all, thank you again for a most stimulating discussion.
[07:59 AM]  Suzanne Logan: *smiles... thank you all for coming... next week ... we start with 51 - The Nourishment
[07:59 AM]  Corwyn Allen: I'm off to change clothes and go to my poetry reading
[07:59 AM]  Suzanne Logan bows to honor you
[07:59 AM]  Ginger Goldlust: ty again friends *smiles softly*
[07:59 AM]  metta Botanical wishes Tarali had woken up in time to join us today
[07:59 AM]  Taras Balderdash: Thank you all!
[07:59 AM]  Anisa Nadir: /hum
[07:59 AM]  Anisa Nadir takes a humble bow
[07:59 AM]  metta Botanical: have a wonderful week all.
[07:59 AM]  Basil Brooks: ty al as well
[07:59 AM]  Corwyn Allen: Xing Zsun, it was nice to meet you.
[07:59 AM]  Xing Zsun: Thank you
[07:59 AM]  Suzanne Logan: yes...please tell him we missed him
[07:59 AM]  Anisa Nadir: please have a good afternoon all smiles softly
[07:59 AM]  metta Botanical: Okasan, I will do my best to get the notes to you earlier this week.
[07:59 AM]  Ginger Goldlust would very much like to obtain the nice slow bow you all have...
[07:59 AM]  Suzanne Logan: very nice to have you here Xing-san
[07:59 AM]  Suzanne Logan: ah domo Metta-san
[07:59 AM]  Suzanne Logan bows to honor you
[07:59 AM]  Taras Balderdash: Bye now!
[07:59 AM]  Ginger Goldlust: the LL one hurts my back :)
[07:59 AM]  Xing Zsun: Yes I will visit again
[07:59 AM]  Corwyn Allen bows respectfully to all.
[08:00 AM]  Suzanne Logan: have a wonderful day everyone!!
[08:00 AM]  metta Botanical: I apologize. I am adjusting to a new medicine that has me struggling a bit so I am not quite myself rightnow
[08:00 AM]  metta Botanical: Take care all
[08:00 AM]  Suzanne Logan turns and slowly moves from the okiya
[08:00 AM]  Basil Brooks: i hope thats the right on Ginger
[08:01 AM]  Ginger Goldlust: ty Basil, that is the same one from LL
[08:02 AM]  Ginger Goldlust puts her youri back on
[08:03 AM]  Ginger Goldlust: *zouri*
[08:03 AM]  Ginger Goldlust: /ao on
[08:03 AM]  metta Botanical carefully closes the doors as she steps outside to retrieve her shoes
[08:04 AM]  metta Botanical quietly depart

Tao chapters 48 - 49

[06:57 AM]  Suzanne Logan slips out of her zouri and points them outward ready to put on when she has to leave
[06:58 AM]  Lysandra Goodnight: Ohayou Gozaimasu, Okasan
[06:58 AM]  Lysandra Goodnight takes a humble bow
[06:58 AM]  Corwyn Allen bows respectfully.
[06:58 AM]  Corwyn Allen: Ohayo gozaimasu Okasan, Metta-san
[06:58 AM]  metta Botanical respectfully greets all and lets them know she hears sis having problems in the other room getting online
[06:58 AM]  Lysandra Goodnight: Ohayou metta san..
[06:58 AM]  Suzanne Logan: ohayou gozaimasu Lysandra, Corwyn, Metta-san
[06:58 AM]  Suzanne Logan bows to honor you
[06:58 AM]  Lysandra Goodnight takes a humble bow
[06:58 AM]  Suzanne Logan: ohh ...
[06:59 AM]  Cannot complete attachment. An attachment is pending for that spot.
[06:59 AM]  Suzanne Logan: actually neither Basil nor Taras are able to attend today
[06:59 AM]  metta Botanical: ah ok
[06:59 AM]  Lysandra Goodnight: Ah.. their gifted insight will be missed
[06:59 AM]  Suzanne Logan: nice hat Hogosha - is your hair all tucked up under it?
[06:59 AM]  Corwyn Allen: Thank you.
[06:59 AM]  Corwyn Allen: Yes
[07:00 AM]  Suzanne Logan nods....
[07:00 AM]  Suzanne Logan: oh! you cut your hair!!
[07:00 AM]  Suzanne Logan: very nice samurai look *smiles
[07:00 AM]  Corwyn Allen: Samurai style
[07:00 AM]  Corwyn Allen: Domo
[07:01 AM]  Ginger Goldlust: good morning
[07:01 AM]  Corwyn Allen: Ohayo gozaimasu Gingern san
[07:01 AM]  Corwyn Allen bows respectfully.
[07:01 AM]  Ginger Goldlust bows to honor everyone here
[07:01 AM]  metta Botanical: Tarali is coming also (I just went and sat on him)
[07:01 AM]  Suzanne Logan: konnichiwa Ginger-san!
[07:01 AM]  Suzanne Logan bows to honor you
[07:01 AM]  Lysandra Goodnight: Ohayou Ginger san
[07:02 AM]  Lysandra Goodnight takes a humble bow
[07:02 AM]  metta Botanical: he can't move well on the computer he is on, but I let him know what we need is his words, not his moving ability
[07:02 AM]  metta Botanical sits herself down and tries to bring her mind into the right place for such a serious class
[07:03 AM]  Suzanne Logan: domo Ginger-san!
[07:03 AM]  Corwyn Allen: Ohayo Tarali-san
[07:03 AM]  Ginger Goldlust bows humbly
[07:03 AM]  Lysandra Goodnight: Ohayou TaraLi san
[07:03 AM]  Suzanne Logan: ohayou Tarali-san
[07:03 AM]  Suzanne Logan bows to honor you
[07:03 AM]  TaraLi Jie: Ohayou. *smiles* Domo.
[07:04 AM]  Suzanne Logan: welcome all!
[07:04 AM]  Suzanne Logan: Basil and Taras will not be able to attend today
[07:04 AM]  Lysandra Goodnight: Domo arigato Okasan
[07:04 AM]  Suzanne Logan: it is good to see you all here!
[07:05 AM]  Suzanne Logan: has everyone had a good week?
[07:05 AM]  Ginger Goldlust: very good to be here Suzanne!
[07:05 AM]  TaraLi Jie: Thank you for the invitation.
[07:05 AM]  TaraLi Jie: I've been pretty quiet this week - scratchy throat does that.
[07:05 AM]  Ginger Goldlust is so very happy to see Handsome TaraLi is no longer wearing his go-go boots
[07:06 AM]  TaraLi Jie: Wearing boots in here would be wrong, through!
[07:06 AM]  Ginger Goldlust belatedly remembrerd and kicks of her (wht are these things called?)
[07:06 AM]  Suzanne Logan: I hope you will feel better very soon
[07:06 AM]  Ginger Goldlust: zouri
[07:06 AM]  Suzanne Logan: *smiles zouri?
[07:06 AM]  Corwyn Allen: Zouri or geta
[07:06 AM]  TaraLi Jie: I'm getting better, Suzanne.
[07:06 AM]  Suzanne Logan: good *smiles
[07:07 AM]  Ginger Goldlust sneezes
[07:07 AM]  Corwyn Allen: Gesundheit
[07:07 AM]  Suzanne Logan: so are we ready to begin the 48th verse?
[07:07 AM]  Ginger Goldlust: time honored tradition... to get rid of cold, give it to someone else for safekeeping:)
[07:07 AM]  Corwyn Allen: That's Japanese for gesundheit
[07:07 AM]  Ginger Goldlust: ty corwyn
[07:07 AM]  Suzanne Logan: *laughs
[07:07 AM]  metta Botanical blushes as she realizes she did not leave her boots outside and quickly remedies that
[07:08 AM]  Suzanne Logan settles herself and shuffles her notes preparing to read... *please help yourself to tea as you wish
[07:08 AM]  Ginger Goldlust subtly tosses her zouri to sis
[07:08 AM]  -: A.
[07:08 AM]  -: In the pursuit of learning, every day something is acquired.
[07:08 AM]  Tea cup Tomesode whispers: Ah! Steaming Green Tea!
[07:08 AM]  -: In the pursuit of Tao, every day something is dropped.
[07:08 AM]  -:
[07:08 AM]  -: Less and less is done
[07:09 AM]  -: Until non-action is achieved.
[07:09 AM]  -: When nothing is done, nothing is left undone.
[07:09 AM]  -:
[07:09 AM]  -: The world is ruled by letting things take their course.
[07:09 AM]  -: It cannot be ruled by interfering.
[07:09 AM]  -:
[07:09 AM]  -: The sage has no mind of his own.
[07:09 AM]  -: He is aware of the needs of others.
[07:09 AM]  -:
[07:09 AM]  -: I am good to people who are good.
[07:09 AM]  -: I am also good to people who are not good.
[07:09 AM]  -: Because Virtue is goodness,
[07:09 AM]  -: I have faith in people who are faithful.
[07:09 AM]  -: I also have faith in peopler who are not faithful.
[07:09 AM]  -: Because Virtue is faithfulness.
[07:09 AM]  -:
[07:09 AM]  -: The sage is shy and humble - to the world he seems confusing.
[07:09 AM]  -: Men look to him and listen.
[07:09 AM]  -: He behaves like a little child.
[07:09 AM]  -: *****
[07:09 AM]  -: B.
[07:09 AM]  -: In pursuit of knowledge,
[07:09 AM]  -: every day something is added.
[07:09 AM]  -: In the practice of the Tao,
[07:09 AM]  -: every day something is dropped.
[07:09 AM]  -: Less and less do you need to force things,
[07:09 AM]  -: until finally you arrive at non-action.
[07:10 AM]  -: When nothing is done,
[07:10 AM]  -: nothing is left undone.
[07:10 AM]  -:
[07:10 AM]  -: True mastery can be gained
[07:10 AM]  -: by letting things go their own way.
[07:10 AM]  -: It can't be gained by interfering.
[07:10 AM]  -: *****
[07:10 AM]  -: C.
[07:10 AM]  -: When pursuing knowledge,
[07:10 AM]  -: something new is acquired each day.
[07:10 AM]  -: But when pursuing the way of the Tao,
[07:10 AM]  -: something is subtracted;
[07:10 AM]  -: less striving occurs,
[07:10 AM]  -: until there is no striving.
[07:10 AM]  -: When effort is uncontrived,
[07:10 AM]  -: nothing is left undone;
[07:10 AM]  -: the way of nature rules
[07:10 AM]  -: by allowing things to take their course,
[07:10 AM]  -: not by contriving to change.
[07:10 AM]  -: ~~END~~
[07:10 AM]  -:
[07:10 AM]  Lysandra Goodnight: I got very confused there... then saw you're doing 48 AND 49 together
[07:10 AM]  Suzanne Logan: This again is a repetitive theme in the Tao
[07:11 AM]  Suzanne Logan: I am?
[07:11 AM]  Ginger Goldlust struggles with this non action does not get the dishes done
[07:11 AM]  Lysandra Goodnight: Hai
[07:11 AM]  Suzanne Logan: I still have 49 to read...*checks her reader
[07:11 AM]  Lysandra Goodnight: Verse 48 ends with The world is ruled by letting things take their course. It cannot be ruled by interfering.
[07:11 AM]  Corwyn Allen: It seems like the last two do not match the first one.
[07:12 AM]  Suzanne Logan gave you Tao te Ching 46 - 50.
[07:12 AM]  Ginger Goldlust xtruggles to overcome inertia on a daily basids, and so has trouble with this it seems, on the surface, to encourage her propensity to procrastinate
[07:12 AM]  Suzanne Logan: let us forget the reader today --- I have handed you the notecards...
[07:12 AM]  Lysandra Goodnight: I'm getting this directly from my translation of the Tao, Okasan.. forgive me.
[07:13 AM]  Suzanne Logan: I think you have the same as Corwyn?
[07:13 AM]  Corwyn Allen: A is a combination of 48 and 49
[07:13 AM]  metta Botanical: To me, it seems like what is the purpose of reincarnating if the goal of Tao is complete non action. Why take a body to make no use of the lifetime?
[07:13 AM]  Ginger Goldlust is confuses as she did not see that
[07:13 AM]  Suzanne Logan: Between birth and death,
Three in ten are followers of life,
Three in ten are followers of death,
And men just passing from birth to death also number three in ten.
Why is this so?
Because they live their lives on the gross level.

He who knows how to live can walk abroad
Without fear of rhinoceros or tiger.
He will not be wounded in battle.
For in him rhinoceres can find no place to thrust their horn,
Tigers no place to use their claws,
And weapons no place to pierce.
Why is this so?
Because he has no place for death to enter.
[07:13 AM]  Suzanne Logan: i have that as 49
[07:14 AM]  Corwyn Allen: My fault
[07:14 AM]  Corwyn Allen: I did that
[07:14 AM]  Corwyn Allen: In the original notecard I handed you.
[07:14 AM]  Lysandra Goodnight: that was 50
[07:14 AM]  Corwyn Allen: My apologies
[07:14 AM]  Suzanne Logan: ah
[07:14 AM]  Corwyn Allen: 48
[07:14 AM]  Corwyn Allen: In the pursuit of learning, every day something is acquired.
In the pursuit of Tao, every day something is dropped.

Less and less is done
Until non-action is achieved.
When nothing is done, nothing is left undone.
[07:14 AM]  Suzanne Logan: ok it is no trouble Corwyn..
[07:14 AM]  Corwyn Allen: 49
[07:14 AM]  Corwyn Allen: The world is ruled by letting things take their course.
It cannot be ruled by interfering.

The sage has no mind of his own.
He is aware of the needs of others.

I am good to people who are good.
I am also good to people who are not good.
Because Virtue is goodness,
I have faith in people who are faithful.
I also have faith in peopler who are not faithful.
Because Virtue is faithfulness.

The sage is shy and humble - to the world he seems confusing.
Men look to him and listen.
He behaves like a little child.
[07:15 AM]  Ginger Goldlust: is it assumed that a lifetime devoted to taoism is a later lifetime when much knowledge has been achieved in previous lifetimes?
[07:16 AM]  Suzanne Logan: hmm....explain your question a different way perhaps Ginger
[07:16 AM]  Lysandra Goodnight: I think that represents the achievement of enlightenment, Ginger
[07:16 AM]  Ginger Goldlust: to give up learning in favor of letting things be....seems an odd path to take unless one has already learned a lot
[07:17 AM]  Lysandra Goodnight: I see in verse 48 that running theme throughout the Tao.. that things happen as they happen. Realizing that and allowing it all to take it's course is true wisdom
[07:17 AM]  Corwyn Allen: I do not know that Taoism and reincarnation go hand in hand.
[07:17 AM]  Ginger Goldlust: perhaps it is in letting go that you can truly understand that which matters
[07:17 AM]  Lysandra Goodnight: Domo, Hogasha
[07:17 AM]  Corwyn Allen: That's the corrected card I sent Okasan
[07:18 AM]  Corwyn Allen: For the verses I copy for her fomr teh Feg/English translation
[07:18 AM]  metta Botanical: Taras said that Tao precedes Buddhism and reincarnation is certainly part of Buddhism, which is where my comment comes from (To me, it seems like what is the purpose of reincarnating if the goal of Tao is complete non action. Why take a body to make no use of the lifetime?
[07:18 AM]  Corwyn Allen: I mismarked the last ones
[07:18 AM]  Corwyn Allen gave you Verses 46 thru 50.
[07:18 AM]  Corwyn Allen: Yes Metta.
[07:19 AM]  Corwyn Allen: I think the gist of Tao is to do what you need to do in this life.
[07:19 AM]  Ginger Goldlust: ty Corwyn
[07:19 AM]  Corwyn Allen: I really don't know where the whole idea of reincarnation came from.
[07:19 AM]  Ginger Goldlust: what you need to, and no more?
[07:19 AM]  Corwyn Allen: And frankly it runs a bit contrary to Taoism.
[07:19 AM]  Corwyn Allen: No more and no less.
[07:19 AM]  Corwyn Allen: Enough is enough
[07:19 AM]  Ginger Goldlust channels fred rogers again, singing "I like to take my time and do things right"
[07:20 AM]  metta Botanical: I do understand the concept that our unhappiness comes from resisting what is, but I have problems with the idea of letting life go by without participating in it
[07:20 AM]  Lysandra Goodnight: I see the first part of the verse as compared to achieving wisdom and elightenment through losing false perceptions about the universe.. dropping .. say.. "bad habits".. the more that are dropped, the more room is there for wisdom.
[07:20 AM]  Corwyn Allen: Right metta. This is what Taras would call all yang and no yin.
[07:21 AM]  Corwyn Allen: All passive and no aggression.
[07:21 AM]  TaraLi Jie: Dropping bad habits, is one thing. Dropping *all* habits is another. It's like they say about an open mind - be careful it's not so open your brains run down your shirt.
[07:21 AM]  Corwyn Allen: There must always be equal parts of both
[07:21 AM]  Corwyn Allen smiles at Tarali
[07:21 AM]  Ginger Goldlust sees it as a valuable too for meditaion exercises, but not for all of your time
[07:21 AM]  Corwyn Allen: Yes
[07:21 AM]  Ginger Goldlust: eww yuck TL
[07:22 AM]  Lysandra Goodnight: I think what it means there is to let go of the physical. The Tao is a guideline to a purely spiritual goal
[07:23 AM]  metta Botanical: and since Tao is meant for rulers, how does a ruler lead with no action, how does he set an example? I can understand stepping back and understanding the flow before one chooses where to throw your pebble in (for a leader needs to set a course) but to only watch the flow is not to be a leader (although there are times that is necessary), but a leader must step in when the best interests of the ones he leads are not being served
[07:24 AM]  Corwyn Allen: I agree Metta
[07:24 AM]  Ginger Goldlust: Tao is meant for rulers? that makes sense, for if the peasants embrace inactivity there would be no food
[07:24 AM]  Corwyn Allen: Verse 48 is all passive
[07:24 AM]  metta Botanical: I guess that is what really bothers me with this, it makes no sense to what my understanding of what Tao is - a guidebook for those who lead/rule.
[07:24 AM]  metta Botanical thinks we really need Taras for this one
[07:25 AM]  Corwyn Allen: Yes, I widh he was here. He'd give us a more historical background that I don't have.
[07:25 AM]  Suzanne Logan: I think this is about letting others....sometimes the wisest rule is to let others... it is the only way that some people learn
[07:26 AM]  Corwyn Allen: And it helps to understand the history in order to understand Lao Tzu.
[07:26 AM]  Suzanne Logan: *mumbles at least that is the way with my children *sighs
[07:26 AM]  TaraLi Jie: So, the Tao Te Ching is kind of like Machiavelli's _The Prince_....
[07:26 AM]  TaraLi Jie: Just not quite as blood-thirsty.
[07:27 AM]  Corwyn Allen: Not so much
[07:27 AM]  metta Botanical grins at Okasan as she thinks about the peek she got at a notecard that one of Okasan's students sent her yesterday
[07:27 AM]  Corwyn Allen: Machiavelli is about politics
[07:27 AM]  Corwyn Allen: Lao Tzu is about spiritualism
[07:27 AM]  Ginger Goldlust pats suzanne and thanks her for taking on the role of raising children
[07:27 AM]  Suzanne Logan: please pardon I have to re-log
[07:28 AM]  TaraLi Jie: NP, Suzanne
[07:28 AM]  Corwyn Allen: Okasan is having viewer problems
[07:28 AM]  Corwyn Allen: I think it might be worthwhile to sit on verse 48 until Taras comes back.
[07:28 AM]  Corwyn Allen: He has such wonderful insights
[07:28 AM]  metta Botanical: I think we need to tap Taras brain on this one next week and maybe move on when Okasan returns
[07:28 AM]  Ginger Goldlust: ad much as I enjoy the historical perspective... sometimes the verse gets lost in it.... do not minimize your input Corwyn, all here are appreciated
[07:28 AM]  Corwyn Allen smiles
[07:28 AM]  Corwyn Allen: GMTA
[07:29 AM]  metta Botanical: yes, is what I was typing too Corywn *chuckles*
[07:29 AM]  metta Botanical: I agree, sis, that is usually the case, but in this case, this verse makes no sense without the historical perspective
[07:29 AM]  Corwyn Allen: Thankyou Ginger, and I don't. But I also realize my own limitations.
[07:29 AM]  Ginger Goldlust basks in the lights of greatness streaming from sis (and corwyn's) minds
[07:29 AM]  Corwyn Allen: I have no problem going to a better informed authority.
[07:29 AM]  Ginger Goldlust giggles behind her hand
[07:29 AM]  Corwyn Allen: Want to borrow my sunglasses?
[07:30 AM]  Corwyn Allen: Or a big hat?
[07:30 AM]  metta Botanical: no greatness streaming from my mind, just an inability to fit this with what we have been learning thus far
[07:30 AM]  Corwyn Allen puts on teh Japanese lampshade
[07:30 AM]  metta Botanical: Ithink I have missed only two classes (maybe one, in fact) since we started
[07:30 AM]  metta Botanical: even though some days I am quiet, I do follow the general thoughts
[07:31 AM]  metta Botanical chuckles at Corwyn
[07:31 AM]  Ginger Goldlust likes yuor hat better, corwyn
[07:31 AM]  Ginger Goldlust: this one is too floofy
[07:31 AM]  WeatherSystem deLuxe HUD whispers: Autoconfiguring to first heard system...
[07:31 AM]  Lysandra Goodnight: welcome back Okasan
[07:31 AM]  Corwyn Allen: Welcome back Okasan
[07:31 AM]  Ginger Goldlust quickly removes feathered hat and whistles at the ceiling
[07:31 AM]  Suzanne Logan: thank you I think
[07:31 AM]  metta Botanical welcomes Okasan back and lets her know that while she was away, we agreed this verse really needs Taras' perspective
[07:31 AM]  Ginger Goldlust: wb Suzanne
[07:32 AM]  Suzanne Logan: thinkgs are not yet back
[07:32 AM]  Suzanne Logan: ah
[07:32 AM]  Suzanne Logan: what is puzzling on the verse?
[07:32 AM]  Ginger Goldlust: historical perspective
[07:32 AM]  Corwyn Allen: Yes, this verse, 48 has us all a bit stymied.
[07:32 AM]  metta Botanical thinks that is good as Okasan might have felt a pillow throwing urge if she had rezzed quickly when returning
[07:32 AM]  Lysandra Goodnight: hmmm
[07:32 AM]  Lysandra Goodnight: I understand it well enough
[07:32 AM]  Ginger Goldlust: Shhh sis
[07:32 AM]  Corwyn Allen: It's all passive, and we really thing we need Taras' input to give a historical perspective.
[07:32 AM]  metta Botanical sits on her typing fingers
[07:33 AM]  metta Botanical: but does want the historical perspective on this one
[07:33 AM]  Ginger Goldlust: as to how passivity served leaders
[07:33 AM]  Suzanne Logan: I see...
[07:33 AM]  Suzanne Logan: let
[07:33 AM]  Corwyn Allen: Lysandra, please let us know your insights.
[07:33 AM]  Suzanne Logan: us remember to ask him next time
[07:33 AM]  Corwyn Allen: Perhaps you've seen something we've missed.
[07:33 AM]  metta Botanical listens to Lysandra
[07:35 AM]  Lysandra Goodnight: Well like i said.. it's another example of the running theme of the Tao. .that the physical is unimportant.. the spiritual is the goal. And as far as leader ship.. I see what it says.. taht the world is ruled by letting things take their course.....
[07:35 AM]  Lysandra Goodnight: The true leader does not have to "prove" it...
[07:36 AM]  Suzanne Logan nods
[07:36 AM]  Lysandra Goodnight: and in my own life experience I've seen that good Managers or Supervisors get more done by letting the people under them do their jobs with minimal interference
[07:36 AM]  TaraLi Jie: The true leader's function is to keep people from doing things that will mess up the way the world wants to go?
[07:36 AM]  Suzanne Logan: that is a good point...allowing autonomy
[07:36 AM]  Lysandra Goodnight: A good leader trusts those under him.. and if he's led well, those under him trust him..
[07:36 AM]  Ginger Goldlust: ty Lysandra, that helps
[07:36 AM]  metta Botanical: but then that would mean that those under him would need to do something
[07:36 AM]  Lysandra Goodnight: He says, "This thing must be done" and it is done.
[07:37 AM]  Lysandra Goodnight: you're taking the idea of action/non action too literally I think..
[07:37 AM]  metta Botanical: and as Corywn said, this verse is all about being totally passive
[07:37 AM]  TaraLi Jie: But saying that, is doing something.
[07:37 AM]  Lysandra Goodnight: The concept of non action I think refers to what the Tao has said in previous verses.. by not doing MORE than is neccessary..
[07:38 AM]  Suzanne Logan: sometimes we wait...the wise person... waits
[07:38 AM]  Lysandra Goodnight: when balance is achieved, then it may seem like non action when only what is needed is done
[07:38 AM]  Suzanne Logan: that is not non-action at all
[07:38 AM]  metta Botanical: this says: [07:08 AM] -: Less and less is done
[07:09 AM] -: Until non-action is achieved.
[07:09 AM] -: When nothing is done, nothing is left undone.
[07:38 AM]  TaraLi Jie: Hum... The impatient kid who says "Why don't we..." all the time...
[07:39 AM]  Lysandra Goodnight: yes.. I don't think it's meant to be interpreted that literally.. there's a lot of symbolism in the Tao
[07:39 AM]  Suzanne Logan smiles... perhaps...lets go on
[07:39 AM]  metta Botanical: yes, I think we should lay this one at Taras' feet next week
[07:39 AM]  Ginger Goldlust nods...there is so much that is left to interpretation
[07:39 AM]  Suzanne Logan: sometimes our answers are found in later reading... I also think the Tao is meant to be absorbed as holistically as we can
[07:40 AM]  Suzanne Logan: lets look at 49
[07:40 AM]  -: Forty Nine  THE VIRTUE OF RECEPTIVITY
[07:40 AM]  -: A
[07:40 AM]  -: The sage has no mind of his own.
[07:40 AM]  -: He is aware of the needs of others.
[07:40 AM]  -:
[07:40 AM]  -: I am good to people who are good.
[07:40 AM]  -: I am also good to people who are not good.
[07:40 AM]  -: Because Virtue is goodness,
[07:40 AM]  -: I have faith in people who are faithful.
[07:40 AM]  -: I also have faith in peopler who are not faithful.
[07:40 AM]  -: Because Virtue is faithfulness.
[07:40 AM]  -:
[07:40 AM]  -: The sage is shy and humble - to the world he seems confusing.
[07:40 AM]  -: Men look to him and listen.
[07:40 AM]  -: He behaves like a little child.
[07:40 AM]  -: *******
[07:40 AM]  -: B
[07:40 AM]  -: The Master has no mind of her own.
[07:40 AM]  -: She works with the mind of the people.
[07:40 AM]  -:
[07:40 AM]  -: She is good to people who are good.
[07:40 AM]  -: She is also good to people who aren't good.
[07:40 AM]  -: This is true goodness.
[07:40 AM]  -:
[07:40 AM]  -: She trusts people who are trustworthy.
[07:40 AM]  -: She also trusts people who aren't trustworthy.
[07:40 AM]  -: This is true trust.
[07:40 AM]  -:
[07:40 AM]  -: The Master's mind is like space.
[07:40 AM]  -: People don't understand her.
[07:40 AM]  -: They look to her and wait.
[07:40 AM]  -: She treats them like her own children.
[07:40 AM]  -: *******
[07:41 AM]  -: C
[07:41 AM]  -: The sage is not mindful for himself,
[07:41 AM]  -: but is receptive to others' needs.
[07:41 AM]  -: Knowing that virtue requires great faith,
[07:41 AM]  -: he has that faith, and is good to all;
[07:41 AM]  -: irrespective of others' deeds,
[07:41 AM]  -: he treats them according to their needs.
[07:41 AM]  -: He has humility and is shy,
[07:41 AM]  -: thus confusing other men.
[07:41 AM]  -: They see him as they might a child,
[07:41 AM]  -: and sometimes listen to his words.
[07:41 AM]  -: ~~END~~
[07:41 AM]  Suzanne Logan quietly finishes
[07:41 AM]  TaraLi Jie: Somewhat like the Christian notion of "Turn the other cheek"...
[07:41 AM]  TaraLi Jie: With a little bit of "out of the mouth of babes"
[07:42 AM]  Lysandra Goodnight: I see it as having a wide view.. seeing the "whole picture" and not limiting yourself to too narrow a view...
[07:42 AM]  Suzanne Logan: I like the three interpretaions all together here... treating people according to their needs
[07:42 AM]  Lysandra Goodnight: I'm minded of a passage of the Desiterata... ".... And listen to others, even the dull and ignorant.. they too have their story"
[07:42 AM]  metta Botanical: In this case, C (The sage is not mindful for himself,) makes more sense to me than "The sage has no mind of his own." (or her own). As I would think part of wisdom is discernment and we use our mind for that.
[07:44 AM]  Ginger Goldlust takes some cofort in ": The Master's mind is like space.
[7:40] -: People don't understand her.
[7:40] -: They look to her and wait.
[07:44 AM]  TaraLi Jie: No, not really, metta - in the "sage has no mind"... It's about seeing the correct decision as already existing, rather than making a decision, and then making it into the right one...
[07:44 AM]  Ginger Goldlust: well said TL
[07:44 AM]  metta Botanical is thinking about that
[07:45 AM]  Ginger Goldlust tries to rermain focused and not space cadet
[07:46 AM]  metta Botanical: ok, Tarali, so from your perspective there is only one space-time continuum, not other timelines are possible than if the only correct decision already exists?
[07:46 AM]  TaraLi Jie: I think from the perspective of the Tao... My perspective is other, of course.
[07:47 AM]  metta Botanical: I prefer Ram Dass' perspective that it is all "grist for the mill," i.e, there are no wrong decisions as we will learn from whatever path we choose. Some paths are easier, more desirable from a personal view point, but they all lead to learning for us.
[07:47 AM]  Ginger Goldlust: but if looking from a leaders perspective...a lot of others have to "learn" from their choices
[07:48 AM]  TaraLi Jie: In the way of the Tao - yes - the correct path has already occurred - and when you get to that point, if you don't see it, you swim against it, until you realize it and let it sweep you along.
[07:48 AM]  metta Botanical waits for sis to complete that thought as she is not following
[07:48 AM]  TaraLi Jie: But then sometimes, it's just fun to go swimming.
[07:49 AM]  metta Botanical: I don't think I ever saw that in the Tao - that the correct path has already occurred, but it may be that myBuddhist perspective has colored what I have seen
[07:49 AM]  Ginger Goldlust: there is responsibility in individual can say that there is no wrong choice, only different paths to explore and learn from, but if a leader's choice causes hardship, the other indic=viduals are likely to kearn resentment rather than a valuable lesson
[07:50 AM]  TaraLi Jie: Good point, Ginger.
[07:50 AM]  Ginger Goldlust apologises for errant characters typed
[07:51 AM]  Suzanne Logan smiles absolutely a good point...
[07:51 AM]  Suzanne Logan: something we likely have experienced in rl
[07:51 AM]  Suzanne Logan: we have 10 minutes left
[07:51 AM]  Ginger Goldlust imagines a mother watching her babies die of starvation
[07:51 AM]  Ginger Goldlust: would not be receptive to learning
[07:52 AM]  TaraLi Jie: Aye.... *blergs*
[07:52 AM]  metta Botanical: Your point does make sense, sis, but I am still struggling with this whole concept today. The whole idea of non action, of not thinking of not using our minds ....
[07:52 AM]  Ginger Goldlust: I think it is hard for you to not take it so literally, sis
[07:52 AM]  metta Botanical: I am Capricorn. This just does not set well with me at all!!!!
[07:53 AM]  Suzanne Logan: it is not about non action or not using your mind...
[07:53 AM]  Ginger Goldlust: hard for you to "read betwen the lines"
[07:53 AM]  Suzanne Logan: maybe I can explain this a little differently
[07:53 AM]  TaraLi Jie: That is the goal of Buddhism, as I understand it - the release from everything.
[07:53 AM]  metta Botanical likes to look at facts, make decisions, accomplish things
[07:53 AM]  Suzanne Logan: I have a person in my rl
[07:53 AM]  Ginger Goldlust listrens
[07:53 AM]  Suzanne Logan: he is always busy...busy....busy
[07:54 AM]  Suzanne Logan: we cannot "connect" because of this
[07:54 AM]  Suzanne Logan: He does not have the time to sit and work through things with others...because he is always doing
[07:54 AM]  Suzanne Logan: nothing gets done
[07:54 AM]  Suzanne Logan: he is a human doing
[07:54 AM]  Suzanne Logan: not a human being
[07:55 AM]  Ginger Goldlust: wow that is interesting
[07:55 AM]  Ginger Goldlust: sounds like my mother
[07:55 AM]  TaraLi Jie: Now, that's an interesting turn of phrase - I think I want to consider that one further.
[07:55 AM]  metta Botanical: That makes sense, Okasan, but I think the way of Buddhism is the best on that - Buddhism promotes the middle path. Not letting go of everything and not controlling everything but finding the harmonious balance.
[07:56 AM]  metta Botanical: which for me, is trying to go quiet to think things through when I need and then acting
[07:56 AM]  Suzanne Logan: must let go of everything to achieve happiness and balance...the option needs to be there ---at least for me
[07:56 AM]  metta Botanical: not only letting things be and not only acting
[07:56 AM]  Suzanne Logan nods
[07:56 AM]  Ginger Goldlust sees the letting go as a reset button
[07:56 AM]  metta Botanical: I agree that sometimes after thought, one realize that the best action is nonaction but that should not be the automatic choice.
[07:57 AM]  Ginger Goldlust: or a reboot ;)
[07:57 AM]  Suzanne Logan: that is still an active concept
[07:57 AM]  Suzanne Logan: it is difficult from our Western perspectives of course
[07:57 AM]  Suzanne Logan: I think of Siddhartha
[07:57 AM]  metta Botanical listens
[07:58 AM]  Suzanne Logan: what kind of work does it take to achieve nirvana?
[07:58 AM]  Suzanne Logan: how much "doing" does that take
[07:58 AM]  Suzanne Logan: or in meditation
[07:58 AM]  Suzanne Logan: what kind of action is that?
[07:58 AM]  metta Botanical: it is action indeed
[07:58 AM]  TaraLi Jie: *nods*
[07:58 AM]  Suzanne Logan: is to "be" with someone sometimes enough?
[07:58 AM]  Suzanne Logan: just throwing things out there *smiles
[07:58 AM]  metta Botanical: for one must reach the point of understanding the eightfold path
[07:59 AM]  TaraLi Jie: No, metta - as long as you're doing it, you're not doing it.
[07:59 AM]  Suzanne Logan nods
[07:59 AM]  metta Botanical: Buddhism is not about non action
[07:59 AM]  metta Botanical: it is about balance
[07:59 AM]  metta Botanical: that is why I am so drawn to it
[07:59 AM]  Ginger Goldlust quirks a brow at TL
[07:59 AM]  TaraLi Jie: That's part of why Buddhism uses koans.
[07:59 AM]  metta Botanical: koans are only one form of meditation
[07:59 AM]  TaraLi Jie: The face you had before you were born... The classic sound of one hand clapping..
[07:59 AM]  Suzanne Logan smiles softly.. I think we can all meditate on this non-action concept and perhaps do some research on our own?
[08:00 AM]  metta Botanical: again, balance. there are various types of meditation and you need the different ones to achieve balance
[08:00 AM]  TaraLi Jie: They are tools to break you from verbal patterns.
[08:00 AM]  metta Botanical: with koans alone, youare not balanced
[08:00 AM]  Suzanne Logan: come back and talk about it next time?
[08:00 AM]  Ginger Goldlust: Ok Suzanne
[08:00 AM]  Ginger Goldlust smiles
[08:00 AM]  TaraLi Jie: Sure, Suzanne!
[08:00 AM]  Suzanne Logan: unfortunately our time is up :(
[08:00 AM]  Suzanne Logan: My job to be Nurse Ratchet
[08:00 AM]  Suzanne Logan: *laughs
[08:00 AM]  Lysandra Goodnight smiles
[08:00 AM]  Corwyn Allen: Sorry I had to slip away there for a bit
[08:00 AM]  Suzanne Logan: oh thank you Metta!!
[08:00 AM]  Suzanne Logan bows to honor you
[08:01 AM]  Lysandra Goodnight: Domo Okasan for another insightful session
[08:01 AM]  metta Botanical chuckles at Okasan and wishes Corywn has been here
[08:01 AM]  Suzanne Logan: welcome back Corwyn *smiles
[08:01 AM]  metta Botanical: as I needed a mind like his here
[08:01 AM]  Corwyn Allen: Thanky ou
[08:01 AM]  Ginger Goldlust: wb corwyn, you will notice the absence of decorations to your avi while you were gone :)
[08:01 AM]  Suzanne Logan: you could have his mind...he sometimes steps out of it
[08:01 AM]  Suzanne Logan ducks
[08:01 AM]  Ginger Goldlust laughs
[08:01 AM]  metta Botanical chuckles
[08:02 AM]  Corwyn Allen: It's just mind over matter. If you don't mind, it don't matter.
[08:02 AM]  Suzanne Logan: *laughs!
[08:02 AM]  Ginger Goldlust smiles at the "chuckles" when she heard a burst of laughter
[08:02 AM]  Corwyn Allen: And now I'm off to change clothes for the poetry reading
[08:02 AM]  Suzanne Logan: thank you all for coming again!
[08:02 AM]  Corwyn Allen bows and smiles.
[08:02 AM]  Corwyn Allen: See you all again.
[08:02 AM]  Suzanne Logan: so lets look and see what we can find about non-action
[08:02 AM]  Ginger Goldlust: ty for having us
[08:02 AM]  Lysandra Goodnight: I thank you all for a fascinating session.. I must depart... it's my roomate's birthday today and I am taking her out to our favorite restaurant
[08:02 AM]  Suzanne Logan: oh fun!
[08:02 AM]  Ginger Goldlust knows it vcan be a challenge, but as a mom you are up to it ;)
[08:02 AM]  Lysandra Goodnight: May you all have a most blessed day
[08:02 AM]  Lysandra Goodnight takes a humble bow
[08:02 AM]  Suzanne Logan: have a nice time Lysandra
[08:03 AM]  Lysandra Goodnight: Ja mata
[08:03 AM]  Suzanne Logan bows to honor you
[08:03 AM]  TaraLi Jie: Happy Birthday to your roommate!
[08:03 AM]  Ginger Goldlust: enjoy, Lysandra
[08:03 AM]  TaraLi Jie: Have fun!
[08:03 AM]  Lysandra Goodnight: Domo
[08:03 AM]  metta Botanical wishes all a good week and goes into the next room to read to Tarali
[08:03 AM]  Suzanne Logan: you know you are all welcome always to stay as long as you want
[08:03 AM]  Suzanne Logan: I have more sim destruction to do

V. 46 - 47, February 15, 2009

7:08]  Suzanne Logan: alright thank you... I'll begin with the reading then... *closes her eyes and centers herself
When the Tao is present in the universe,
The horses haul manure.
Then the Tao is absent from the univers,
 War houses are bred outside the city.

Ther eis no greater sin than desire,
No greater curse than discontent,
No greater misfortune than wanitn something for oneself.
Therefore he who knows that enough is enough will always have enough.
When a country is in harmony with the Tao,
the factories make trucks and tractors.
When a country goes counter to the Tao,
warheads are stockpiled outside the cities.

There is no greater illusion than fear,
no greater wrong than preparing to defend yourself,
no greater misfortune than having an enemy.

Whoever can see through all fear
 will always be safe.
When the way of nature is observed,
all things serve their function;
horses drawing carts, and pulling at the plough.
But when the natural way is not observed,
horses are bred for battle and for war.
Desire and wanting cause discontent,
whilst he who knows sufficiency
more easily has what he requires.

Suzanne Logan: our homework was to think about these two verses ahead of time. Taras turned in his thoughts and I will start with him
Taras please you have the floor
[7:11]  Taras Balderdash: I've given a copy to everyone. Did you get them?
[7:12]  Basil Brooks: yes...ty
[7:12]  Corwyn Allen: Yes.
[7:12]  Klannex Northmead is Offline
[7:12]  Ginger Goldlust did not
[7:12]  Taras Balderdash: Ginger, you are lagging like me..
[7:12]  Taras Balderdash: Let me try again.
[7:12]  Ginger Goldlust: she has just come out of a lag, and her homework was eaten by SL (would not upload)(the notecard is nearly blank)
[7:13]  Ginger Goldlust: ty this time it came in
[7:13]  Taras Balderdash: Those are my thoughts on the chapters
[7:13]  Taras Balderdash: All I would add...
[7:13]  Suzanne Logan: do you need to clear cache and re-log Ginger?
[7:13]  Taras Balderdash: is that the contrast between racehorses manuring the fields and warhorses is interesting
[7:13]  Taras Balderdash: The theme is avarice, and I'm sure horses were raced, then as now
[7:13]  Taras Balderdash: And bet oon.
[7:14]  Taras Balderdash: *on
[7:14]  Ginger Goldlust: welcome sis
[7:14]  Taras Balderdash: Greetings, Metta
[7:14]  Ginger Goldlust: Verse 46
if you do not covet thy neighbors things, and he does niot covet yours, then what is there to fight about?
the best defense against war is avoidance
take joy from what there is, from what you have, for there is likely one who would consider you rich.
[7:14]  Corwyn Allen: Hi Metta
[7:14]  Suzanne Logan: Welcome Metta-san
[7:14]  Ginger Goldlust: Verse 46
if you do not covet thy neighbors things, and he does niot covet yours, then what is there to fight about?
the best defense against war is avoidance
take joy from what there is, from what you have, for there is likely one who would consider you rich.
[7:14]  Basil Brooks: here metta have my seat
[7:14]  metta Botanical quickly hops off the table, apologizing for her lateness and explainining she is not feeling well so will remain mainly quiet
[7:15]  Ginger Goldlust welcomes Basil back from his wander
[7:15]  Suzanne Logan: I hope you will feel better soon... was nice you came!
[7:15]  metta Botanical: Thank you, Basil and Suzanne *goes quiets*
[7:15]  Suzanne Logan turns to the verse...
[7:16]  Suzanne Logan: so Taras... your commentary is well thought out here
[7:16]  Suzanne Logan: I have a question
[7:16]  Taras Balderdash: 42
[7:16]  Taras Balderdash: What's the question?
[7:16]  Suzanne Logan: to me the verse seems to be saying as so often I get from it...this thing about inaction
[7:16]  Suzanne Logan: more like be still and just know
[7:17]  Taras Balderdash: I'm not so ssure of that
[7:17]  Suzanne Logan: almost as if sit back and watch, sip your tea and all will come right eventually
[7:17]  Taras Balderdash: The concept of sitting and letting the world work right is htere in China
[7:17]  Basil Brooks: i fell also it is a message for you heart
[7:17]  Taras Balderdash: Espceially for the emperor
[7:17]  Ginger Goldlust: it seems only that those if everyone were to agree to follow the tao, then we humans might thrive
[7:18]  Basil Brooks: indeed!
[7:18]  Ginger Goldlust: however those who follow the Tao will be soon overun by those who do not... thru war, scientific exploration... whatever
[7:18]  Corwyn Allen: I don't think humans have ever had trouble thriving with or without the Tao.
[7:18]  Taras Balderdash: But here we also see the mechanism. the leader delegates all tasks, no one pushes beyond what they need to get it done
[7:19]  Taras Balderdash: So, not inaction, but doing without exceeding the lmits of actions
[7:19]  Taras Balderdash: not pushing
[7:19]  Suzanne Logan: ah
[7:19]  Suzanne Logan: well I do like the last verse...
[7:19]  Basil Brooks: all works in harmony in spirit of Tao
[7:19]  Suzanne Logan: it indicates to me that one at least needs to know when enough is enough
[7:19]  Ginger Goldlust whispers she took some from other verses in coming to her conclverse 50 version they all seem linked and summarized nicely by
[7:20]  Corwyn Allen: Trying to fill a glass that is already full.
[7:20]  Corwyn Allen: Enough is enough
[7:20]  Ginger Goldlust: chuckles at the interesting language is makiing out of her chat... conclusion, etc
[7:21]  Suzanne Logan: yes.. good analogy Corwyn...
[7:21]  Suzanne Logan: let me know please group if you want to continue
[7:21]  Taras Balderdash: Only to say...
[7:22]  Taras Balderdash: that this chapter is like a place to fit Buddhism into the culture
[7:22]  Suzanne Logan: oh yes...
[7:22]  Taras Balderdash: Lagged
[7:23]  Taras Balderdash: it was written severl centuries before Buddhism came to China from India
[7:23]  Basil Brooks: please explain Taras
[7:23]  Taras Balderdash: but has many of thebasic elements
[7:23]  Taras Balderdash: Eliminate desire, and see and act clearly
[7:23]  Taras Balderdash: That is, actualy, not desire
[7:23]  Taras Balderdash: which is natural
[7:24]  Corwyn Allen: This is a thing that always bothers me about these writings
[7:24]  Taras Balderdash: but avarcse and greed
[7:24]  Taras Balderdash: \
[7:24]  Taras Balderdash: and lagged spelling!
[7:24]  Taras Balderdash: *avarice
[7:25]  Taras Balderdash: Oh?
[7:26]  Corwyn Allen: Yes. It seems to not explain fully the difference between doing and not doing, desire and no desire. It often seems too black and white and yet the universe is made of shades of grey.
[7:26]  Corwyn Allen: In order to write the Tao, Lao Tzu had to deside to writer it.
[7:26]  Corwyn Allen: desire
[7:26]  Ginger Goldlust: if we move on, the idea is continued... simplicity, not seeking anything
[7:26]  Corwyn Allen: And so he went against the very priniciple he would expound.
[7:27]  Taras Balderdash: Yes, and Lao Zi had to make arrangements with a publisher, set up the digital and movie rights, etc. All very un-Daoist
[7:27]  Ginger Goldlust: even knowledge and understanding is limited to what is at hand, avoiding exploration and inquiry
[7:27]  Basil Brooks: hahahaha ;-))
[7:27]  Corwyn Allen: But if we avoid exploration and inquiry what is the point?
[7:27]  Ginger Goldlust: all is at hand via the mind...
[7:28]  Corwyn Allen: Why have this class for example if we are not exploring?
[7:28]  Taras Balderdash: Exactly, Corwyn
[7:28]  Ginger Goldlust nods... it is where I have trouble in accepting these verses
[7:28]  Taras Balderdash: I always get the feeling from lao Zi that we are getting only half of thee equation
[7:28]  Basil Brooks: in the spirit of Tao, all desirous actions flow as where is the desire???
[7:28]  Corwyn Allen: I understand what he means by enough being enough
[7:28]  Taras Balderdash: That it is all Yin and no Yang.
[7:28]  Corwyn Allen: But in order to get enough one has to want.
[7:28]  Corwyn Allen: to desire
[7:28]  Ginger Goldlust: a sage is painted as a childlike innocent. welcoming to everyone, which is sweet, but then the sage is not taken seriously by everyone, and so their knowledge ius not disseminated as much as it could be
[7:29]  Taras Balderdash: Looks significantly at the teapot
[7:29]  Ginger Goldlust struggled with this set of verses, seeing good but limitation
[7:29]  Ginger Goldlust: would Taras-san care for a cup of tea?
[7:29]  Suzanne Logan: well... *smiles at Taras.... and pours him a cup of tea
[7:29]  Taras Balderdash: Yes, thank you!
[7:29]  Corwyn Allen: The symbol for Yin adn Yang is a circle divided in half, one halkf black the other white.
[7:29]  Suzanne Logan hands him a cup with a small bow of her head
[7:30]  Taras Balderdash: See, desire isn't all bad!
[7:30]  Corwyn Allen: THis speaks to me more than some of the verses, that one must have eq
[7:30]  Ginger Goldlust: balance in all things
[7:30]  Corwyn Allen: equal portions of both to be truly balanced.
[7:30]  Ginger Goldlust: if one did not desire the cup of tea, would so much joy and contentment be achieved by so simple a thing?
[7:30]  Corwyn Allen: Exactly
[7:31]  Corwyn Allen: But wanting more than that one cup would be greedy
[7:31]  Taras Balderdash: I'll let the cup speak for me.
[7:31]  Ginger Goldlust: the joy and contentment do feed into the collective energy of the room, or the world...
[7:32]  Suzanne Logan: the key thought in this verse seems to me that it is not wrong to want...for oneself so long as the wanting does not become insatiable and ends up possessing a person... like SL does
[7:32]  Ginger Goldlust: on the other hand, if your throat is dry and scratchy, and you do not think of tea, you would still be very pleased and comforted by having some that is given to you
[7:32]  Ginger Goldlust smiles at Suzanne's wise words
[7:32]  Taras Balderdash: Very true. *smiles
[7:33]  Ginger Goldlust: so perhaps not focusing on one's wants, but instead trusting that needs willl be met... and then enjoying the things that satisfy the needs fully ... that would not waste energy
[7:34]  Ginger Goldlust's thoughts are flowing and babbling like the waterfall *smiles softly*
[7:34]  Taras Balderdash: I'm afraid I'm not trusting. I keep a weather eye out for trouble and asume bad things will happen...
[7:34]  Suzanne Logan smiles I like that thought though
[7:34]  Taras Balderdash: then the goodd things are a pleasant surprise
[7:34]  Corwyn Allen: Optimistic pessimism
[7:35]  Basil Brooks: ;-)
[7:35]  Corwyn Allen: I'm optimistic that the worst will happen.
[7:35]  Taras Balderdash: The Yi Jing says: 'No hill wihtout a valley, no trip without a return' This expresses my thought
[7:35]  Corwyn Allen: And thus am rarely disappointed
[7:35]  Corwyn Allen: /m nods
[7:35]  Ginger Goldlust blinks at Corwyn-san, thinking how she should resist the urge to toss a pilow at him, as it would feed into that idea
[7:36]  Taras Balderdash: *puts down tea for a moment, bracing for a pillow fight.
[7:36]  Suzanne Logan chuckles... You have permission to throw pillows in the Okiya on Sundays Ginger
[7:36]  Suzanne Logan: I do it all the time
[7:36]  Basil Brooks: hahahahaha
[7:36]  Corwyn Allen: And I'm always the target
[7:36]  Corwyn Allen: So fire away.
[7:36]  Ginger Goldlust tosses a pillow at Corwyn, smiling
[7:37]  Taras Balderdash: So, are we going on to 47 today? The Beatles chapter?
[7:37]  Suzanne Logan: *laughs...hai... 47....*shuffles her papers
Without going outside, you may know the whole world.
WIthout looking through the window you may see the ways of heaven.
The farther you go, the less you know.

Thus the sage knows without traveling;
He see without looking;
He works without doing.
Without opening your door,
you can open your heart to the world.
Without looking out your window,
you can see the essence of the Tao.

The more you know,
the less you understand.

 The Master arrives without leaving,
sees the light without looking,
achieves without doing a thing.
The Tao may be known and observed
without the need of travel;
the way of the heavens might be well seen
without looking through a window.
The further one travels,
the less one knows.
So, without looking, the sage sees all,
and by working without self-advancing thought,
he discovers the wholeness of the Tao.

[7:39]  Suzanne Logan: Taras I liked your notecard on this
[7:40]  Taras Balderdash: It's all Yin agani. Yes, constantly moving leaves no room to absorb and truly know. But just absorbing is one side of the coin.
[7:40]  Taras Balderdash: ty, Suza-san
[7:41]  Suzanne Logan: there is a leadership guru...of course I cannot remember his name
[7:42]  Suzanne Logan: but he talks of standing on the balcony for from there you get a better view of the is sometimes about perspective
[7:42]  Taras Balderdash: Perhaps the chapter is about the Internet. If you travel without a Sprint card you will be less and less connected. *smiles and listens to Suza-san
[7:42]  Corwyn Allen: Not seeing the forest for the trees.
[7:43]  Taras Balderdash: And the alternative...
[7:43]  Taras Balderdash: if you never come down from the balcony you'll think people never speak
[7:43]  Corwyn Allen: Indeed.
[7:43]  Ginger Goldlust tosses a pilow at Taras this time
[7:43]  Corwyn Allen: Viewing a forest from afar you miss the beauty of the single tree.
[7:43]  Suzanne Logan: well that is true as well....the wise leader will have both the perspective from the street as well as the balcony
[7:43]  Taras Balderdash: *ducks, catching the pillow right on the nose
[7:44]  Corwyn Allen: A friend of mine used to be annoyed at me whenever we went to a museum
[7:44]  Corwyn Allen: I would look at a painting briefly from a distance
[7:44]  Corwyn Allen: then walk up and examine brushstrokes
[7:44]  Ginger Goldlust appreciates the historical perspective of Taras interpretation, as always
[7:44]  Corwyn Allen: Meanwhile he'd just stand back and look at the painting from a distance
[7:44]  Taras Balderdash: *smiles at Ginger and tosses the pillow up and down lightly
[7:44]  Ginger Goldlust: did the artist esnt you only to see the entirety, the result, and not the methosd?
[7:45]  Corwyn Allen: While the artists work can be appreciated from both perspectives he thought I was missing something by being too close.
[7:45]  Taras Balderdash: Good analogy. Yes, the distant veiw and the technical details
[7:45]  Taras Balderdash: Both together form the better imprression
[7:45]  Corwyn Allen: Yes
[7:45]  Corwyn Allen: That's my point.
[7:45]  Ginger Goldlust hands across the table 2 more pillows, of matching size and shape, and watches...
[7:45]  Corwyn Allen: One can observed the forest from a distance, but one only appreciates the cherry blossoms up close
[7:46]  Taras Balderdash: There is a great difference in who observes as well
[7:46]  Ginger Goldlust will point out that excess expenditure on saving one seal... may seem wasteful, but as a symbolic gesture that caught the eye of many... it may have stimulated more efforts
[7:46]  Corwyn Allen: Yes, and what the point of the exercise of observing is for the individual.
[7:46]  Taras Balderdash: My wife, a musician, hears a piece of music in an entirely different way than I do
[7:47]  Taras Balderdash: Recent studies have shown that this is actually visible in brain activity
[7:47]  Corwyn Allen nods at Taras
[7:47]  Taras Balderdash: A musicia uses different parts of the brain to process music
[7:47]  Corwyn Allen: All things are subjective
[7:48]  Corwyn Allen: Actually, different musicians do it differently from one another too.
[7:48]  Ginger Goldlust: does your wife enjoy hearing others discuss the music, to fill out her perspective? and remind her of how it was before she knew how to play?
[7:48]  Corwyn Allen: I have a friend who can't read music but can play anything he hears
[7:48]  Taras Balderdash: Well, that is a key point. In this chapter, we have abstract and concrete, but not theeory and practise discussed, it seems to me
[7:49]  Taras Balderdash: Not sure on my wif'es views on that, Ginger
[7:50]  Ginger Goldlust: yes Taras... I do know that my little bit of musical training is enough that I can love what I hear, without stressing over the little bits...
[7:50]  Ginger Goldlust: if I were an accomplished musicion, trained... I would not have this blessing of pure enjoyment
[7:50]  Taras Balderdash: Those who are all theory and no practice are useless. Those who are practical only, rejecting the framework behind things, also limited
[7:50]  Taras Balderdash: Well, I don't kno.
[7:51]  Taras Balderdash: Music is a very deep thing for her
[7:51]  Taras Balderdash: A great joy, as well a a profession.
[7:51]  Corwyn Allen: Ginger, training does not obviate pure enjoyment
[7:51]  Corwyn Allen: As a musician myself who has had minimal training I have always had a great love of good music, good being defined subjectively by what I enjoy.
[7:52]  Taras Balderdash: For myself, my limited progress in Chinese has greatly enhance the joy or reading the Chinese classics, for instance
[7:52]  Taras Balderdash: There was a controversy in the old days in China about thinking versus reading
[7:53]  Ginger Goldlust listens
[7:53]  Taras Balderdash: Kong Zi, Confucius) was for reading over thinking
[7:53]  Taras Balderdash: Would you say that Lao Zi was of the thinking over reading school?
[7:54]  Corwyn Allen: I would
[7:54]  Corwyn Allen: The Tao that can be read not being the true Tao and all that.
[7:54]  Taras Balderdash: Yes, quite so.
[7:54]  Corwyn Allen: These two are Yin and Yang.
[7:54]  Corwyn Allen: Diametrically opposed yet conjoined.
[7:55]  Taras Balderdash: Hm, I don't know if I would divide the philosophers as Yin and Yang, is that what you mean?
[7:55]  Corwyn Allen: Yes, from the perspective that thought and action are Yin and Yang. One being passive the other aggressive.
[7:55]  Corwyn Allen: Reading is an aggressive act
[7:55]  Corwyn Allen: Thought is passive
[7:56]  Taras Balderdash: Then I don't agree. Kong Zi was balanced
[7:56]  Ginger Goldlust: reading is "seeking knowledge"
[7:56]  Corwyn Allen: No, that was not my point
[7:56]  Taras Balderdash: His Dao is the Dao of 'riding the changes'
[7:56]  Corwyn Allen: I meant that together, Kong Zi and Loa Tzu are Yin and Yang.
[7:56]  Corwyn Allen: Sorry if I wasn't clear
[7:56]  metta Botanical completely disagrees that thougth is passive
[7:56]  Taras Balderdash: To develop society, evolve, improve
[7:57]  Taras Balderdash: I see Lao Z as an incomplete view
[7:57]  Taras Balderdash: e certainly had some interesting views
[7:57]  Taras Balderdash: but Chinese society was built on Kong Zi
[7:58]  Taras Balderdash: And rejected the HundredSchools
[7:58]  Taras Balderdash: However the Legalists, the excessively Yang schoool of Confucianism
[7:58]  Taras Balderdash: was also in the 'rejected' column
[7:59]  Taras Balderdash: The nature of knowledge is indeed a wide subject. We have 30 more seconds to cover it.
[7:59]  Corwyn Allen bows respectfully.
[7:59]  Ginger Goldlust giggles behind her hand
[7:59]  Taras Balderdash: Over to you, Corwyn. :)
[7:59]  Corwyn Allen: Forgive me, I have to get ready for another event. Please excuse my hasty departure. Everyone have a lovely day.
[8:00]  Taras Balderdash: *looks at him expecting a comprehensive answer
[8:00]  Taras Balderdash: he poofs. lol

V. 45, February 8, 2009

[7:25]  Corwyn Allen: Okasan has risen
[7:26]  Taras Balderdash: Suza-san!
[7:26]  Suzanne Logan bows to honor you
[7:26]  TaraLi Jie: Hi, Suzanne!
[7:26]  Lysandra Goodnight: Konnichi wa Okasan
[7:26]  Lysandra Goodnight takes a humble bow
[7:26]  Suzanne Logan: gomen nasai to all I am so sorry
[7:26]  Corwyn Allen: Ginger I think Okasan really really needs a cup of tea
[7:26]  Corwyn Allen: Extra strong.
[7:26]  Suzanne Logan: ni howdy to Taras-san
[7:26]  Ginger Goldlust: greetings Okasan
[7:26]  Taras Balderdash: lol
[7:26]  Taras Balderdash: Ni Hao Di Ma Am
[7:26]  Suzanne Logan: please forgive me for not being alert!
[7:26]  Corwyn Allen: That's the greeting from western China I think.
[7:26]  Ginger Goldlust: may I offer you some hot tea?
[7:27]  Suzanne Logan nods please!
[7:27]  Taras Balderdash: Put a double shot of espresso in that tea
[7:27]  Suzanne Logan: so have you solved all the world's problems?
[7:27]  Corwyn Allen: There you go.
[7:27]  TaraLi Jie tosses a couple of no-doze into the cup before passing it to Suzanne.
[7:27]  Ginger Goldlust carefully pours a cup of hot tea from the extra strong pot for Suzanne and hands it to her
[7:27]  Taras Balderdash: We were just invading Asia with Genghis
[7:27]  Suzanne Logan: domo
[7:27]  Corwyn Allen: And after Asia, Amatsu
[7:28]  Suzanne Logan shakes her head
[7:28]  Corwyn Allen: The sands of the Gobi lie gold in the sun
[7:28]  Suzanne Logan: so I don't suppose you want to try at least one verse?
[7:28]  Corwyn Allen: The warriors and herdsmen ride free
[7:28]  Corwyn Allen: But somewhere a voice cries Move on, Move on
[7:28]  TaraLi Jie: In Xanadu did Kubla Khan a Pleasure Dome decree...
[7:28]  metta Botanical bows her head as she greets Suzanne. "Please forgive me for remaining standing as I have issues when I sit."
[7:28]  Lysandra Goodnight: That would be fine, Okasan
[7:28]  Corwyn Allen: Tomorrow belongs to meeeeeee.
[7:28]  Suzanne Logan weeps
[7:28]  Ginger Goldlust would welcome a verse
[7:29]  Ginger Goldlust:  if Suzanne is up to it
[7:29]  TaraLi Jie: I would enjoy a verse...
[7:29]  Suzanne Logan: hai... *sighs
[7:29]  Ginger Goldlust:  Suzanne have you met TaraLi?
[7:29]  Tea cup Tomesode whispers: Ah! Steaming Green Tea!
[7:29]  Suzanne Logan: hai....he came to teahouse on Wednesday
[7:29]  Ginger Goldlust:  I do believe he attended the fictionary dictionary
[7:29]  Suzanne Logan: it is good to see you here today again Tarali
[7:29]  TaraLi Jie: Aye, I did.
[7:30]  TaraLi Jie: Thank you, Suzanne.
[7:30]  Taras Balderdash: We were discussing the first verse a bit
[7:30]  Ginger Goldlust:  for any others here who have not met TaraLi officially, He is housemate to angel and Bee in RL
[7:30]  Taras Balderdash: I send you a comment that I sent to everyone else
[7:30]  Suzanne Logan: well then... we have 45 and some comments I wanted to make so I am going to run with this quickly
[7:30]  Ginger Goldlust:  and the 3rd officer of our family group, The Birds Nest
[7:30]  Suzanne Logan: I wanted to talk a little about Tao
[7:30]  Ginger Goldlust goes quiet to listen
[7:31]  Taras Balderdash: From there we discussed taxation, and that of course led to the glorious Khan Genghis
[7:31]  TaraLi Jie perks his ears, focussing on Suzanne.
[7:31]  Suzanne Logan: you all were very busy at least tnad that is good!!
[7:31]  Taras Balderdash: *listens
[7:31]  Suzanne Logan settles herself...
[7:31]  Suzanne Logan: There is frequently some confusion between three practices, each of which is generically termed 'Taoism'.
[7:32]  Suzanne Logan: Since this confusion exists, it is important that the prospective student of Taoism can distinguish between them.
[7:32]  Suzanne Logan: The three activities, or practices of Taoism are Philosohical or speculative Taoism, Religious or esoteric Taoism, and Alchemical or 'debased' Taoism.
[7:32]  Suzanne Logan: I would like to preent theses briefly I'll begin with Tao-chia
[7:33]  Suzanne Logan: and then can do a brief on the others in consecutive sessions
[7:33]  Suzanne Logan: The earliest of these is Philosophical Taoism (Tao-chia), which is believed to have developed between the sixth to the second century before the Christian era, from the earlier 'Yin-Yang' school of philosophy, whose teachings it inherited and integrated into its own 'philosophical system' through the 'I Ching', now (unfortunately) most widely known as a work of 'divination'.
[7:33]  Suzanne Logan: Philosophical Taoism is generally thought to have been based on the 'Tao Te Ching' of the possibly legendary Lao Tzu, and the work of his follower, Chuang Tzu, which is known through the book which bears his name, and is otherwise without title.
[7:34]  Suzanne Logan: The major development and establishment of Religious Taoism (Tao-chiao) took place during the two Han dynasties (from 206 B.C. to 220 A.D.), and considered the Tao Te Ching as divine teaching, using specific interpretations of Lao Tzu's work as one of its own primary scriptures.
[7:34]  Suzanne Logan: The Religious Taoists deified Lao Tzu, describing him as the 'T'ai Shang Lao-chun'. In later centuries, Religious Taoism was to become a very powerful movement throughout China, where it was widely practiced, at least until the middle of the twentieth century.
[7:34]  Suzanne Logan: so that is all on that for today
[7:35]  Suzanne Logan: just to give a smidgion of back ground
[7:35]  Basil Brooks: ty Suzanne
[7:35]  TaraLi Jie: Danke.
[7:35]  Ginger Goldlust:  ty Suzanne
[7:35]  Suzanne Logan turns to her verse now *inclining her head
[7:35]  -: Forty One:  Sameness and Difference
[7:35]  Corwyn Allen: Nice bit of historical background
[7:35]  Corwyn Allen: Thank you
[7:35]  Taras Balderdash: One clarification where I don't agree with the author, but overall very nice.
[7:35]  Suzanne Logan: erg
[7:35]  TaraLi Jie finds himself elevated by his enlightenment.
[7:36]  Suzanne Logan: erase that
[7:36]  Basil Brooks: I like the philisophical stuff
[7:36]  Taras Balderdash: Right. no more caffeine for TaraLi. He's floating.
[7:36]  Basil Brooks: hahahahaha
[7:37]  metta Botanical apologizes to Suzanne. "That was I think my fourth crash since class started. I will need to get the notes from Ginger to clean up for you. I just need to know if you want the parts before you arrived, Suzanne, or only since you arrived."
[7:37]  Taras Balderdash: The idea that the Yi Jing (I Ching) started as philosophy and 'descended' into diviniation is wrong.
[7:37]  Taras Balderdash: It eveolved from divination into philosohphy
[7:37]  Suzanne Logan: Great accomplishment seems imperfect,
Yet it does not outlive its usefulness.
Great fullness seems empty,
Yet it cannot be exhausted.

Great straightness seems twisted.
Great intelligence seems stupid.
Great eloquence seems awkward.

Movement overcomes cold.
Stillness overcomes heat.
Stillness and tranquility set things in order in the universe.
[7:38]  Suzanne Logan: just lets use that one interpretation today to save time
[7:38]  TaraLi Jie nods...
[7:38]  Suzanne Logan: I can comment on this if I may
[7:38]  Corwyn Allen: Please
[7:38]  Taras Balderdash: Please do
[7:38]  TaraLi Jie: Please. *smiles*
[7:38]  Suzanne Logan: at work
[7:39]  Suzanne Logan: I have noticed that the higher in management one goes, the less common sense may be displayed
[7:39]  Corwyn Allen: The Peter Principal in action.
[7:39]  Suzanne Logan: *laughs
[7:39]  Taras Balderdash: Ah, pointy hair syndrome
[7:39]  Taras Balderdash: Hot air rises
[7:39]  Suzanne Logan: I LOVE Dilbert
[7:39]  Corwyn Allen: Lao Dilbert
[7:40]  TaraLi Jie: *chuckles* Dilbert is ... very wise.
[7:40]  Suzanne Logan: and when I am cold if I move about I am warmer
[7:40]  Corwyn Allen: Yeah, he's a wise guy
[7:40]  Suzanne Logan: and.....
[7:40]  Corwyn Allen listens
[7:41]  Suzanne Logan: when I am flustered... going to a quiet and still place on Amatsu seems to make all things settled....
[7:41]  Suzanne Logan: but tell me about Great eloquence and awkward?
[7:41]  Ginger Goldlust nods in agreement, finding Amatsu a wonderful place for tranquil meditation
[7:42]  Taras Balderdash: Perhaps apparent eloquence is in contrast with action
[7:42]  TaraLi Jie: Great Eloquence often uses formal, sometimes stilted language, to attract and keep our attention.
[7:42]  Ginger Goldlust:  great eloquence being a hard status to maintain
[7:42]  Taras Balderdash: The English saying 'actions speak louder than words'
[7:42]  TaraLi Jie: It seems awkward, until we get what is being said.
[7:42]  Corwyn Allen: Or the Chinese saying that a picture is worth a t housand words
[7:43]  Suzanne Logan smiles yes... and yes
[7:43]  Taras Balderdash: Chinese philosophy in general, Confucianism as well, holds empty eloquence in low regards
[7:43]  TaraLi Jie: Aye, Corwyn - but that's a *VERY* low rez image.
[7:43]  Taras Balderdash: *regard
[7:43]  Suzanne Logan: I was reading Taras's note too on this versee
[7:43]  Suzanne Logan: versee??
[7:43]  Suzanne Logan: *sighs
[7:43]  Taras Balderdash: lol
[7:43]  Corwyn Allen grins at Taralie
[7:43]  Suzanne Logan: I give up
[7:43]  TaraLi Jie: Don't worry, we all read typoese.
[7:44]  Corwyn Allen: Rock-a-bye Okasan in the treetop
[7:44]  Ginger Goldlust:  ah what would TaraLi give for "down"?
[7:44]  Taras Balderdash: If someone even think, No tickee, no versee, I'm going to slap 'em
[7:44]  Taras Balderdash: *slaps self
[7:44]  Corwyn Allen: You rikey versee?
[7:44]  Ginger Goldlust bursts into laughter in RL
[7:44]  TaraLi Jie washee's Taras' mouth out with soap.
[7:44]  Suzanne Logan: OH my Goodness..*throws a pillow at Taras and Corwyn
[7:45]  Taras Balderdash: Mmmm lavender soap!
[7:45]  Corwyn Allen: All is lost now
[7:45]  Corwyn Allen: Katie bar the door
[7:45]  Suzanne Logan: oh dear !! I declare today a wash
[7:45]  TaraLi Jie thinks he might be flied Tara
[7:45]  Corwyn Allen hands the soap back to Suz.
[7:45]  Suzanne Logan: maybe next week.....*voice trails off
[7:45]  Suzanne Logan: *sighs....
[7:45]  Suzanne Logan: Lets do this...
[7:45]  Suzanne Logan: I am going to give us all some homework
[7:45]  Corwyn Allen: Uh oh
[7:46]  Taras Balderdash: Some of the greatest figures in Daoism have been drunks and comedians
[7:46]  Corwyn Allen: See what happens when we act up in class?
[7:46]  Taras Balderdash: It all works
[7:46]  Suzanne Logan: next week we will begin with 46
[7:46]  TaraLi Jie: *nods*
[7:46]  Suzanne Logan: I would like everyone to look at that and verse 47
[7:46]  Basil Brooks: ok !
[7:47]  Suzanne Logan: meditate a little on them and then come prepared with a thought....just one sentence or two that sums up for you the essence of each of them
[7:47]  Suzanne Logan: let me hand out the card with the 3 translations
[7:48]  Suzanne Logan gave you Tao te Ching 46 - 50.
[7:48]  TaraLi Jie looks at verse 42, and sees the generation of the ordinals.
[7:48]  Corwyn Allen: Arigato
[7:48]  Suzanne Logan: did you all get that?
[7:48]  Corwyn Allen: 42?
[7:49]  Suzanne Logan: so 46 - 50?
[7:49]  Basil Brooks: yes ty
[7:49]  metta Botanical checks her FPS and sees it is only 20. That is very low for me. There is definitely something going on here.
[7:49]  Ginger Goldlust:  TaraLi was looking online for verses, and came to 42
[7:50]  Ginger Goldlust:  hence his chat about verse 42
[7:50]  Ginger Goldlust:  so long and thanks for all the fish
[7:50]  Basil Brooks: ;-))
[7:51]  Corwyn Allen: If anyone is interested in a live poetry reading this morning, here some info
[7:51]  TaraLi Jie: Actually, that was pure coinkydink, but... It is a curious one.
[7:51]  Corwyn Allen: Avgi The Isle of Awakening
The Event takes place every Sunday at 8 AM SL time,
or for those who live in the UK that is 4 PM GMT, and 5 PM in Europe,
The event lasts around an hour sometimes longer.

All are welcome to attent, whether you are a poet or not, so please feel free to bring along a favourite poem or two
[7:51]  Corwyn Allen: There are no coincidences
[7:51]  Ginger Goldlust finds it quite appropriate that following the festival of lights, and the ritual cleansing of that, to have our bookclub be "a wash"
[7:51]  Basil Brooks: wow! i need to get soe of that tea!!!
[7:52]  Basil Brooks: some
[7:52]  Ginger Goldlust:  ah Basil has also een elevated by enlightenment
[7:52]  Suzanne Logan rolls her eyes
[7:53]  Suzanne Logan: and elevates
[7:53]  Ginger Goldlust:  its catching!
[7:53]  Basil Brooks: it's magical tea!
[7:53]  Lysandra Goodnight giggles
[7:53]  Basil Brooks: hahahahaha ;-))
[7:53]  Ginger Goldlust:  I appear to be immune to enlightenment :(
[7:53]  Lysandra Goodnight: oh my
[7:53]  Suzanne Logan starts singing....girls just wanna have fun
[7:53]  TaraLi Jie waits for the Mad Hatter and the White Rabbit to show up.
[7:53]  Taras Balderdash: Feels heavy and bloated as one of the few non-floaters
[7:53]  Corwyn Allen: One pill makes you larger
[7:54]  Corwyn Allen: And one pill makes you small
[7:54]  Suzanne Logan: oh dear
[7:54]  Basil Brooks: TaraLi and I are just goofing around
[7:54]  Corwyn Allen: And the ones that mother gives you
[7:54]  Corwyn Allen: Do't do anyting at all
[7:54]  Corwyn Allen: Go ask Alice
[7:54]  TaraLi Jie keeps an eye out for the brownies.
[7:54]  Suzanne Logan throws a very large pillow at Corwyn
[7:54]  TaraLi Jie read Go Ask Alice - very good book, though very sad.
[7:54]  Ginger Goldlust:  when the white knight starts walking backwards, I am getting out of here
[7:55]  Taras Balderdash: ao on
[7:55]  Suzanne Logan: I would like to also let you know that Amatsu is having a formal Valentine Dance on Friday
[7:55]  TaraLi Jie thinks that's an avatar he needs...
[7:55]  Suzanne Logan: you are all invited of course
[7:55]  Suzanne Logan: OOC...tux and ball gowns
[7:55]  Basil Brooks: ty all...what a pleasure!
[7:55]  Lysandra Goodnight: and I am supplying decorations once agan
[7:55]  Ginger Goldlust:  having seen the wonders of Las Vegas night, can only imagine Valentines will be slendorous
[7:55]  Corwyn Allen: Ok folks
[7:55]  Ginger Goldlust:  speldorous
[7:55]  Corwyn Allen: I'm outta here.
[7:56]  Ginger Goldlust:  oh whatever
[7:56]  Corwyn Allen: You all take care
[7:56]  Suzanne Logan: *laughing
[7:56]  TaraLi Jie: Later, Corwyn - be well!
[7:56]  Corwyn Allen: You too
[7:56]  Suzanne Logan: what on earth was in that tea/??
[7:56]  Lysandra Goodnight: Ja mata Corwyn
[7:56]  Suzanne Logan bows to honor you
[7:56]  Lysandra Goodnight takes a humble bow
[7:56]  Corwyn Allen: Why do you think I declined a cup?
[7:56]  metta Botanical returns to let Corwyn know that she agrees with him that there are no coincidences
[7:56]  Ginger Goldlust:  Corwyn spiked the tea!
[7:56]  Corwyn Allen: Not me, I never would
[7:56]  TaraLi Jie: Peyote?
[7:56]  Suzanne Logan: good day to all... we can take up more seriously next week...
[7:56]  Corwyn Allen disappears in a puff of logic
[7:56]  metta Botanical: It does make it rather intresting to try to respond to things in a timely mannner when one crashes everytime one tries to type
[7:57]  TaraLi Jie: Or was it just Coyote, playing his tricks again?
[7:57]  Ginger Goldlust boews to honor her silly companions
[7:57]  Taras Balderdash: Yes, Coyote, that's it. Looks around for Roadrunner
[7:57]  Ginger Goldlust:  and goes to wake up her fingers so she can type
[7:57]  Suzanne Logan: have a wonderful week and don't forget - - - homework!
[7:57]  Lysandra Goodnight: May you all have a most blessed day.
[7:57]  Taras Balderdash: Righto!
[7:57]  Taras Balderdash: Bye all!
[7:57]  TaraLi Jie: Blessed be, Lysandra. Merry meet again.
[7:57]  Ginger Goldlust:  ty all
[7:57]  Suzanne Logan bows to honor you
[7:58]  Suzanne Logan: mata ne minnasan
[7:58]  metta Botanical wishes a good week to all she saw from time to time toay

V. 43-44, Feb 1, 2009

[7:04]  Suzanne Logan quickly slips out of her zoris pointing them outward
[7:05]  Taras Balderdash: Ni hao Meihua Suza-san!
[7:05]  Suzanne Logan bows to honor you
[7:05]  A group member named Sunnivah Jiutai gave you Chachi.
[7:05]  Lysandra Goodnight: Konnich wa Okasan
[7:05]  Suzanne Logan: Ni Hao Taras-san
[7:05]  Lysandra Goodnight takes a humble bow
[7:05]  Suzanne Logan: konnichiwa minasan!
[7:05]  Lysandra Goodnight: How wonderful to see you this morning
[7:05]  Suzanne Logan: gomen nasai i am late
[7:05]  metta Botanical respectfully greets Okasan
[7:06]  Lysandra Goodnight: Okasan.. I have fixed the gift box there on the table to now give the February Kanzashi pins
[7:06]  Ginger Goldlust respectfully greets Okasan, and thanks her for adding me to group
[7:06]  Suzanne Logan: please let us wait just a littel longer I think Corwhy will foin us
[7:06]  Lysandra Goodnight: which I am wearing...
[7:06]  Suzanne Logan: ohh new Kanzashi!!
[7:06]  Suzanne Logan looks closer... how lovely!!
[7:06]  Suzanne Logan: domo Lysandra!
[7:06]  Lysandra Goodnight: Domo, Okasan
[7:07]  Basil Brooks: what is Kanzashi pins?
[7:08]  Ginger Goldlust waits to see how the pins will look in Basil's hair
[7:08]  Basil Brooks: hahahahahaha ;-))))
[7:08]  Ginger Goldlust giggles softly behind her hand
[7:08]  Basil Brooks: i will have to try them on later ;-)))
[7:09]  Suzanne Logan: ((i will be right back))
[7:09]  Lysandra Goodnight: they're for woman particulary, Basil but... hehehehe if you wish
[7:09]  Ginger Goldlust whispers to Basil that she is attending bookclub for her "sister " (alt) Bee
[7:09]  A group member named juelle Robbiani gave you *juelles* NEW RELEASES FREE MEN AND STORES FOR RENT!!.
[7:10]  Basil Brooks: yes ...I figured that out ...ty just the same...I am honored to be here with all of you
[7:12]  Lysandra Goodnight: Either we're all very quiet or I crashed again
[7:12]  metta Botanical: Suzanne, Ginger and I were talking this morning about proper footwear. I told her how "I" learned yesterday that we are not to wear our shoes in here (whispers to Okasan that she does not have her shoes on) but Ginger asked if there are slippers that are to be worn instead?
[7:12]  Suzanne Logan smiles
[7:13]  Suzanne Logan: usually we geisha where our two-toed socks called tabi indoors
[7:13]  Suzanne Logan: but for guests we should have some indoor slippers
[7:14]  Ginger Goldlust knows that Bee has some slippers that look like wolves heads... and blink... and thinks they would not be appropriate
[7:14]  Taras Balderdash: So spiked riding boots caked with mud are right out then? Blast!
[7:14]  Basil Brooks: respectfully removes his shoes
[7:14]  Suzanne Logan: *sighs and pokes Taras
[7:14]  Lysandra Goodnight chuckles at Taras' remark
[7:14]  metta Botanical: Thank you. "I" have much too learn. Which does lead me to another question, since Tiny is 12 years old and has a true hunger for knowledge, would it perhaps make more sense for Tiny to be the one to begin to attend these workshops so that there may be consistency.
[7:14]  Ginger Goldlust: those slippers got into a fight at a Pajama party once... it was most distracting
[7:14]  Lysandra Goodnight: Shoes.. as they say... are shoes
[7:14]  metta Botanical: metta seems to be needed only to tp Basil in but we can give him a landmark
[7:15]  Taras Balderdash: Oh, alright *takes off spiked riding boots, trying not to get mud on the tatami
[7:15]  Suzanne Logan: as to Tiny...would the concepts not be too lofty for her?
[7:16]  metta Botanical believes she is about to crash
[7:16]  Suzanne Logan: well I think we should get started
[7:16]  Ginger Goldlust knows that metta's typise was reading at collegiate level by the time she was 11 or 12... so her point of reference may be unusual
[7:16]  Lysandra Goodnight: Hai
[7:16]  Suzanne Logan: I have a gift for each of you
[7:17]  Lysandra Goodnight: You are most kind, Okasan
[7:17]  metta Botanical takes a deep breath as so far she is still here even though chat is not showing some of her chat
[7:17]  Suzanne Logan gave you Tao Te Ching.
[7:17]  Suzanne Logan hands out small precious books
[7:17]  Lysandra Goodnight: book??? oh my goodness..
[7:17]  Ginger Goldlust gratefully accepts the gift
[7:17]  Basil Brooks: ty for this gift
[7:17]  Lysandra Goodnight: Domo Arigato, Okasan
[7:18]  Taras Balderdash: Xie xie Ni, Meihua!
[7:18]  Ginger Goldlust: Domo Arigato, Suzanne
[7:18]  metta Botanical: in response to your question, Suzanne, I believe that Tiny could handle this as she has an insatiable hunger for knowledge but if you would prefer, I can continue to bring metta
[7:18]  Suzanne Logan smiles and looks serious ...these are old...and very valuable... I found them in the attic of the okiya and thought who better to give them to
[7:19]  metta Botanical thanks Suzanne for the treasured gift
[7:19]  Ginger Goldlust thinks of a place of honor she could place hers at home
[7:19]  Suzanne Logan: as to Tiny.. or metta *smiles * I have no problem with either coming or even if you like to mix them up
[7:19]  Suzanne Logan: *smiles
[7:19]  Taras Balderdash: I shall put it in a prominent place in my scriptorium
[7:20]  metta Botanical: I am thinking that it could be a good part of Tiny's training to spend time here engaged in various activities
[7:20]  Maki Inglewood: konbanwa
[7:20]  Suzanne Logan clears her throat softly and resettles herself on the cushion..
[7:21]  Suzanne Logan: konnichiwa
[7:21]  Maki Inglewood: konnichiwa
[7:21]  Suzanne Logan: please sit on a cushion so you will calm down
[7:21]  Lysandra Goodnight: It is wise to quit dancing before teleporting
[7:21]  Suzanne Logan: we are having a discussion on the Tao te Ching are you here to jioin us?
[7:22]  Maki Inglewood: yes
[7:22]  Suzanne Logan smiles as she watches the agile woman remove her shoes
[7:22]  Suzanne Logan carefully kneels smoothing her kimono beneath her
[7:22]  Basil Brooks: dancing is a good proper settings
[7:22]  Suzanne Logan gracefully rises
[7:22]  Basil Brooks: ;-))
[7:23]  Suzanne Logan: if you simply sit on cushion you should stop
[7:23]  Basil Brooks: come sit by me maki
[7:23]  Ginger Goldlust realises she does not have a stop animations in her inventory... something to remedy at her next opportunity
[7:23]  Maki Inglewood: uhuhu
[7:23]  Suzanne Logan: touch that
[7:23]  StopAllAnimations: Stopping 2 animations
[7:23]  StopAllAnimations: Done
[7:24]  Ginger Goldlust: Suzanne i think I used it instead accidentally
[7:24]  Suzanne Logan waits and breathes practicing
[7:24]  Suzanne Logan: it can be used by any
[7:24]  Basil Brooks: stop all animations in the world menu
[7:25]  Taras Balderdash: I sometimes get stuck like thiss. The only way for me is to log off and log bac on to shake it.
[7:25]  Lysandra Goodnight: That is why I love my emDash so much.. it has a tool for that.
[7:26]  A group member named Chrissy Ambrose gave you New Intricate Gem Set at Virtual Impressions.
[7:26]  metta Botanical: my mystitool hud does also
[7:27]  Suzanne Logan: if she will just right click and sit on the cushion she will stop...but no matter is her choice....we will continue and ignore
[7:27]  Basil Brooks: lets look to the Tao Te Ching here for inspiration
[7:27]  Ginger Goldlust places her chat window over the dancing girl and listens
[7:27]  Suzanne Logan: we start with a very short piece this morning and I apologize we are so late
[7:28]  Suzanne Logan: this may be summarized as At one with the Tao
[7:28]  Suzanne Logan: A.
The softest thing in the universe
Overcomes the hardest thing in the universe.
That without substance can enter where there is no room.
Hence I know the value of the non-action.

Teaching without words and work without doing
Are understood by very few.
[7:29]  Suzanne Logan: B.
The gentlest thing in the world
overcomes the hardest thing in the world.
That which has no substance
enters where there is no space.
This shows the value of non-action.

Teaching without words,
performing without actions:
that is the Master's way.
The gentlest thing in the world
overcomes the hardest thing in the world.
That which has no substance
enters where there is no space.
This shows the value of non-action.
[7:29]  Suzanne Logan: C.
Only the soft overcomes the hard,
by yielding, bringing it to peace.
Even where there is no space,
that which has no substance enters in.
Through these things is shown
the value of the natural way.
The wise man understands full well,
that wordless teaching can take place,
and that actions should occur
without the wish for self-advancement.
[7:29]  Lysandra Goodnight: what number is this one Okasan?
[7:29]  Suzanne Logan: this is number 42
[7:29]  Suzanne Logan: i apologize I had to eject her
[7:30]  Suzanne Logan: that is the first time in 3 years I have ever done that *blushes
[7:30]  Suzanne Logan: but I warned her first in IM
[7:30]  Lysandra Goodnight: it's 43 actually.
[7:30]  Suzanne Logan: yes.. that is right
[7:30]  metta Botanical gave you Stop All Animations.
[7:30]  Suzanne Logan: 43
[7:31]  Suzanne Logan: everyone take a deep breath
[7:31]  Suzanne Logan: *smiles
[7:32]  Suzanne Logan: this was a good one for just now
[7:32]  Ginger Goldlust breathes in deeply, calming herself
[7:32]  Lysandra Goodnight: I'm minded of that old saying... "Better to remain silent and thought a fool than to speak and remove all doubt".... sometimes a lot is said by saying nothing.
[7:32]  Suzanne Logan: only the soft overcomes the hard ... a gentle push from the sim
[7:32]  Suzanne Logan: *laughs
[7:32]  Ginger Goldlust smiles at both comments
[7:33]  Suzanne Logan: lets talk about the line that which has no substance enters where there is no space
[7:33]  Suzanne Logan: what do you think of that?
[7:33]  Ginger Goldlust: teaching thru your own actions... doing rather than saying...
[7:33]  Ginger Goldlust: carries more weight
[7:34]  Lysandra Goodnight: A professor I once learned under said that people tend to speak a lot just to fill in the space.. it's like people, like nature, abhors a vaccum so we tend to say anything rather than let silence hang in the air.
[7:34]  Ginger Goldlust nods
[7:34]  Lysandra Goodnight: hmmm could the first be a referene to entrophy? that in the end all matter will come to nothing...
[7:35]  Suzanne Logan: I am not sure of this
[7:35]  Taras Balderdash: I don't know, coming to something indicates finality...
[7:35]  Lysandra Goodnight: for even water, such as the tide or surf.. can eventually overcome rock. .wearing it away so that only the water remains.
[7:35]  Taras Balderdash: and the Dao is all about process
[7:35]  Suzanne Logan: I think I am tempted to take what is on the surface but I think this goes deeper than that
[7:35]  Taras Balderdash: A Cosmos without beginning or end
[7:36]  metta Botanical: yes, the first part of this made me think of rock and water but the That which has no substance
enters where there is no space. confused me
[7:36]  Lysandra Goodnight: hmm I'm seeing something.. that ... the spiritual overcomes the material.. the material is immaterial.. unimportant.. the spirit is what fills the universe.
[7:37]  Suzanne Logan: I think it is speaking of the Tao
[7:37]  metta Botanical: I must also explain that my comments may not fit in as I am getting chat badly out of order, I got B & C first and thenthe whole A section etc, later. Ginger will send me the notes afterwards so that I may clean them for you, Suzanne
[7:37]  Taras Balderdash: The irresistable force meets the immovable object. They have six kids and settle in the suburbs.
[7:38]  Lysandra Goodnight glances quizzically at Taras
[7:38]  Suzanne Logan: lets go on to the next one... perhaps if the class is willing?
[7:38]  Lysandra Goodnight: as you wish, Okasan
[7:38]  Basil Brooks: yes
[7:38]  Suzanne Logan: Forty Four: Sufficiency
[7:39]  Suzanne Logan: A.
Fame or self: Which matters more?
Self or wealth: Which is more precious?
Gain or loss: Which is more painful?

He who is attached to things will suffer much.
He who saves will suffer heavy loss.
A contented man is never disappointed.
He who knows when to stop does no find himself in trouble.
He will stay forever safe.
[7:39]  Suzanne Logan: B.
Fame or integrity: which is more important?
Money or happiness: which is more valuable?
Success of failure: which is more destructive?

If you look to others for fulfillment,
you will never truly be fulfilled.
If your happiness depends on money,
you will never be happy with yourself.

Be content with what you have;
rejoice in the way things are.
When you realize there is nothing lacking,
the whole world belongs to you.
[7:40]  Suzanne Logan: C.
A contented man knows himself to be
more precious even than fame,
and so, obscure, remains.
He who is more attached to wealth
than to himself,
suffers more heavily from loss.
He who knows when to stop, might lose,
but in safety stays.
[7:40]  Lysandra Goodnight: This touches on a recurring theme in the Tao.. to do only what is sufficient.. to take only what is needed.. to say only what is adequate.. excess even in work can lead to ruin.
[7:40]  Lysandra Goodnight: sounds like a trick question.. the first part...
[7:41]  Lysandra Goodnight: To value Fame is to be vain.. to value self is to be conceited....
[7:41]  metta Botanical slowly shakes here head as she got A and then C and then B and then Suzanne's question about going on to the next one. Explains that so that others will understand the "interesting" order in which she is seeing chat and view her responses accordingly
[7:42]  metta Botanical: *her
[7:42]  Lysandra Goodnight: I think the first part .. the answer is "neither".. balance is what is of more value
[7:42]  Ginger Goldlust: to value self is tobe conceited? I would rather think to value self above others... for we all have value
[7:43]  Suzanne Logan: ah...
[7:43]  Lysandra Goodnight: well I meant that to value self is to be self-centered.. that too is a pitfall.. the spirit is what is of value.. and our spirit is part of the greater whole
[7:43]  Suzanne Logan: I think that the Tao would say that integrity, happiness are more important and valuable
[7:43]  Basil Brooks: value the greatness in others above youself
[7:43]  Suzanne Logan: but sometimes success or failure can be more destructive
[7:44]  Suzanne Logan: sorry I was looking at B
[7:44]  Lysandra Goodnight: even setting others above yourself is an excess, Basil.. the focus should be on the spirit.. following the path
[7:44]  Ginger Goldlust: the way humans are more likely to remember a slight than a compliment?
[7:45]  metta Botanical: I think that "If you look to others for fulfillment,
you will never truly be fulfilled." shows we must value ourselves otherwise how can we find fulfillment within ourselves?
[7:45]  Ginger Goldlust: both are irrelevant
[7:45]  Lysandra Goodnight nods.. "Hai Ginger.. it's easier to hate than to love sometimes"
[7:45]  Basil Brooks: the only thing we can do in this life is give it away
[7:45]  Ginger Goldlust: give what Basil?
[7:46]  Basil Brooks: give of your love , campassion and kindness
[7:46]  Ginger Goldlust smiles and nods in agreement
[7:46]  Lysandra Goodnight nods
[7:46]  metta Botanical: I see this whole verse as meaning that we are to be complete within ourselves
[7:46]  Suzanne Logan: the verse is summed up in the last few lines about content ment
[7:47]  metta Botanical: so to me this is very much a verse about valuing ourselves
[7:47]  Basil Brooks: give as water, silent as god
[7:47]  Suzanne Logan: oh I like that Basil
[7:47]  metta Botanical: rather than looking to outside sources for our value
[7:47]  Taras Balderdash: To be satisfied with what you have is certainly a good lesson. Stop the constant stream of acquisition and enjoy the basics.
[7:47]  Basil Brooks: ty I mad a poster of it
[7:48]  Ginger Goldlust ;looks about her RL home full of things that could be given away... and thinks how peaceful it would be to have the open space
[7:48]  Basil Brooks: i will share but I cant find it right now ...
[7:48]  Suzanne Logan nods...
[7:48]  metta Botanical nods to Ginger
[7:48]  Basil Brooks: inventory clutter
[7:49]  Suzanne Logan: there is a verse in Hebrews that says to be content with such things that ye have
[7:49]  Suzanne Logan: a contented one is never disappointed.
[7:50]  Ginger Goldlust: the Tao says contentment and stillness are better than extremes?
[7:50]  Suzanne Logan: sometimes we crave for more and this increases our worry and destroys our health. When we know when to just "stop" it is safer for us
[7:51]  Ginger Goldlust: to seek joy would be asking for destructive extremes?
[7:51]  Suzanne Logan: material things
[7:51]  Suzanne Logan: or wealth
[7:51]  Suzanne Logan: or fame
[7:51]  Suzanne Logan: like the verse before this one
[7:52]  Suzanne Logan: sometimes we want more recognition
[7:52]  Suzanne Logan: or more attention
[7:52]  Lysandra Goodnight: The second part.. "A contented man is never dissapointed"... if you know who you are then it doesn't matter what people think.. only what you think is important. So placing too much value on "self" is to assign it worth for the sake of other people's opinions...
[7:52]  Ginger Goldlust: ahhhh
[7:52]  Taras Balderdash: I see it more as a matter of attitude. To own, but not to be possesive.
[7:52]  Taras Balderdash: To be a caretaker of the world, and know your limits.
[7:53]  Suzanne Logan: it is the sense of coveting that is so destructive, the way we might manipulate to obtain whatever it is
[7:53]  Ginger Goldlust: in owning is responsibility... to take care of... not to possess
[7:53]  Suzanne Logan: correct !
[7:54]  Lysandra Goodnight: "He who knows when to stop does not find himself in trouble"... again.. balance.. put aside excess in all things and be content with what 'is'..
[7:54]  Suzanne Logan: hai Lysandra -
[7:54]  Ginger Goldlust is glad she is uninterrupted for this verse, as it speaks to her deeply
[7:54]  Ginger Goldlust: and requires more contemplation
[7:55]  Suzanne Logan: and what about the value we place on things.... suppose you had a beatiful vase and it broke...
[7:55]  Suzanne Logan: how does contentment and ownership work here?
[7:55]  Lysandra Goodnight: then it's time has passed I suppose
[7:56]  Lysandra Goodnight: well it's not wrong to own things.. but it IS wrong to be owned BY them.
[7:56]  Suzanne Logan smiles... my mother would cry and years later mention being upset with the loss
[7:56]  Lysandra Goodnight: If a person is defined by their possessions, then what becomes of them when those possessions are lost?
[7:56]  Suzanne Logan: she may have been content with her things...but in the end she was not content without them
[7:57]  Ginger Goldlust: what if the lovely volumes we were just gifted with fell into the water?... is there not history and honor in the symbolism of some material things?
[7:58]  Ginger Goldlust: only as they stir thought and memory within us, but still...
[7:58]  Suzanne Logan: hai there is... and the Tao would not take our grieving away... loss is part of existence...but then to have the rest of your life in malcontent .. ?
[7:58]  Lysandra Goodnight: if the content of the book is within you.. then the physical book passing away is of little value.. the wisdom it passed along is of greater value
[7:58]  Ginger Goldlust: is it wrong to want to share that with others?
[7:59]  metta Botanical: I would add to this that the self in this context is not our true self but our ego self. Our true self (our soul) is not constrained by material possessions, what others think of us, etc. It is only our ego self that needs to be validated by such things. Thus I would see this as simply saying do not get caught in the trap of seeing your ego self as who you are but remember to view life from the point of view of your true self/higher self/soul which sees all others only with love, knowing we are all part of the same Source.
[8:00]  Taras Balderdash: I suppose it comes to how sentimental we are. There is a positive sentimtalism that attaches value to objects associated with people we love or respect, and a negative, possesiveness.
[8:01]  Suzanne Logan nods to Taras... yes that helps me
[8:01]  Ginger Goldlust: me as well, thank you Taras
[8:01]  Suzanne Logan: and Metta I think you are right... to separate the Ego from this
[8:02]  Suzanne Logan: here our time is up and we had to start so late... I apologize for the lack of organization this morning
[8:02]  Ginger Goldlust: if we had started on time we would have been more disrupted by our dancing visitor :)
[8:02]  Lysandra Goodnight: It is fine, Okasan.. I did gain some enlightenment from today's class ... it was all time well spent
[8:03]  Suzanne Logan smiles softly
[8:03]  Taras Balderdash: It was enjoyable as always. Xie xie ni, Meihua!
[8:03]  Basil Brooks: ty all awesome to be with you all
[8:03]  Ginger Goldlust: see Basil, we can be serious too :)
[8:03]  Suzanne Logan: we are so happy you can be here too!
[8:04]  Lysandra Goodnight: Domo Arigato Okasan for another delightful discussion.
[8:04]  metta Botanical: Basil, please use the LM to get here next time as I may have Tiny here instead of metta
[8:04]  Basil Brooks: ok
[8:04]  Basil Brooks: ty Suzanne
[8:05]  Suzanne Logan: also to you all the landing point of the sim... there is a calendar
[8:05]  Suzanne Logan: if you right click on a selection it gives you a little detail of that event
[8:05]  Ginger Goldlust saw that this morning
[8:05]  Suzanne Logan: domo Metta !
[8:06]  Ginger Goldlust: but did notice that there was not a location for the event
[8:06]  Suzanne Logan: you right click
[8:06]  metta Botanical: my pleasure, Suzanne
[8:06]  Suzanne Logan: thank you all for coming!
[8:06]  Suzanne Logan bows to honor you
[8:07]  Lysandra Goodnight: I wish you all a most blessed day
[8:07]  Lysandra Goodnight takes a humble bow
[8:07]  Suzanne Logan: may your day be pleasant!
[8:07]  metta Botanical sees herself standing over the water outside the island
[8:07]  Taras Balderdash: Good day, all!
[8:07]  Ginger Goldlust: and yours as well, Suzanne, Lysandra.. everyone
[8:07]  Basil Brooks: see you next tjme!

V 41-42 Jan 25, 2009

[7:06]  Suzanne Logan: now to begin!
[7:06]  -: Forty One
[7:06]  -:
[7:06]  -: The wise student hears of the Tao and practices is diligently
[7:06]  -: The average student hears of the Tao and gives is thoughts now and again.
[7:06]  -: The foolish student hears of the Tao and laughs out loud
[7:06]  -: I there were no laughter, the Tao would no be what it is.
[7:07]  Suzanne Logan: please forgive our typos
[7:07]  -:
[7:07]  -: Hence it is said:
[7:07]  -: The bright path seems dim;
[7:07]  -: GOing forward seems like retreat;
[7:07]  -: The easy way seems hard;
[7:07]  -: The highest Virtue seems empty;
[7:07]  -: Great purity seems sullied;
[7:07]  -: A wealth of Virtue seems inadequate;
[7:07]  -: The strength of Virtue seems frail;
[7:07]  -: Real Virtue seems unreal;
[7:07]  -: The perfect square has no corners;
[7:07]  -: Great talents ripen late;
[7:07]  -: The highest notes are hard to hear;
[7:08]  -: The greatest form has no shape.
[7:08]  -: The Tao is hidden and without name.
[7:08]  -: The Tao alone nourishes and brings everything to fulfillment.
[7:08]  -:
[7:08]  -:
[7:08]  -:
[7:08]  Suzanne Logan: hm... technical difficulties...but you can all start with that one... please..
[7:09]  Taras Balderdash: First a footnote on the term used for the superior, medial and inferior people in the verse...
[7:09]  Taras Balderdash: the Chinese term used is Žm Shi
[7:10]  Taras Balderdash: This was the lowest rank of the nobility of merit
[7:10]  Taras Balderdash: And meant 'knight' more or less
[7:10]  Taras Balderdash: A member of the literati or the military infrastructure, but the lowest rank.
[7:11]  Taras Balderdash: I'm digging in texts to see what scholars have to say about that usage.
[7:12]  Suzanne Logan: ok I have the next now
[7:12]  metta Botanical smiles
[7:12]  Suzanne Logan: two interpretations
[7:12]  -: When a superior man hears of the Tao,
[7:12]  -: he immediately begins to embody it.
[7:12]  -: When an average man hears of the Tao,
[7:12]  -: he half believes it, half doubts it.
[7:12]  -: When a foolish man hears of the Tao,
[7:12]  -: he laughs out loud.
[7:12]  -: If he didn't laugh,
[7:12]  -: it wouldn't be the Tao.
[7:12]  -:
[7:12]  -: Thus it is said:
[7:12]  -: The path into the light seems dark,
[7:12]  -: the path forward seems to go back,
[7:12]  -: the direct path seems long,
[7:12]  -: true power seems weak,
[7:13]  -: true purity seems tarnished,
[7:13]  -: true steadfastness seems changeable,
[7:13]  -: true clarity seems obscure,
[7:13]  -: the greatest are seems unsophisticated,
[7:13]  -: the greatest love seems indifferent,
[7:13]  -: the greatest wisdom seems childish.
[7:13]  -:
[7:13]  -: The Tao is nowhere to be found.
[7:13]  -: Yet it nourishes and completes all things.
[7:13]  -: C.
[7:13]  -: On hearing of the Tao,
[7:13]  -: the wise student's practice is with diligence;
[7:13]  -: the average student attends to his practice
[7:13]  -: when his memory reminds him so to do;
[7:13]  -: and the foolish student laughs.
[7:13]  -: But we do well to remember
[7:13]  -: that with no sudden laughter,
[7:13]  -: there would be no natural way.
[7:13]  -: Thus it is said,
[7:13]  -: "There are times when even brightness seems dim;
[7:13]  -: when progress seems like regression;
[7:13]  -: when the easy seems most difficult,
[7:13]  -: and virtue seems empty, inadequate and frail;
[7:14]  -: times when purity seems sullied;
[7:14]  -: when even reality seems unreal,
[7:14]  -: and when a square seems to have corners;
[7:14]  -: when even great talent is of no avail,
[7:14]  -: and the highest note cannot be heard;
[7:14]  -: when the formed seems formless,
[7:14]  -: and when the way of nature is out of sight".
[7:14]  -: Even in such times as these,
[7:14]  -: the natural way still nourishes,
[7:14]  -: that all things may be fulfilled.
[7:14]  -:
[7:14]  Suzanne Logan: END
[7:15]  Suzanne Logan: so I especially like the line that says the average student attends to his practice when his memory reminds him so to do
[7:15]  Suzanne Logan: so
[7:16]  Suzanne Logan: is memory that which sets the wise apart from the average?
[7:16]  Taras Balderdash: I wouldn't say so
[7:16]  Taras Balderdash: I had a friend with photographic memory. Phenomenal mind for math. Clearly a genius.
[7:17]  Suzanne Logan: or is it that... our memories are much improved when we really WANT to do something?
[7:17]  metta Botanical: I think this is telling us that the wise live the Tao and the average study it
[7:17]  Taras Balderdash: But he revelled in the political works of Noam Chomsky, a hack scientist and black helicopter loonie.
[7:17]  Corwyn Allen chuckles at Taras' comments
[7:17]  Taras Balderdash: So I could not call him wise, though his memory was phenomenal.
[7:17]  Corwyn Allen: I think Metta has hit something
[7:18]  Suzanne Logan smiles.. I think so too Corwyn
[7:18]  Corwyn Allen: The average student has to be reminded to study
[7:18]  Corwyn Allen: The wise man needs no such reminder
[7:18]  Corwyn Allen: The wise man knows tehre is still much to learn
[7:18]  Corwyn Allen: there
[7:18]  Taras Balderdash: And the poor student finds study a distraction from video games.
[7:18]  Corwyn Allen: Oh, and you should fire your typist
[7:18]  Corwyn Allen: Yes, Taras
[7:19]  Suzanne Logan: *laughs.. no way - typist stays
[7:19]  Suzanne Logan: we are a quiet group today...
[7:19]  Taras Balderdash: Our typists pay for the boradband. Do not offend them or they will unplug us!
[7:19]  Suzanne Logan: do you want to go on to the next one?
[7:19]  Taras Balderdash: Blast, the spelling is contagious.
[7:19]  Corwyn Allen: Sorry, my mind is in many places today.
[7:19]  metta Botanical thinks that Corwyn is rubbing off on Tara *smiles at both of them*
[7:20]  metta Botanical: *Taras
[7:20]  Taras Balderdash: My favorite verse may not actually have been in any of the versions
[7:20]  Taras Balderdash: It is the last verse in the Ma Wang Dui verrsion, from the Han Dynasty
[7:21]  metta Botanical looks over at Basil, we normally do get into long discussions of these verses, even though I know you can't tell it yet *grins*
[7:21]  Suzanne Logan: ah...and that is?
[7:21]  Basil Brooks: ;-))))
[7:21]  Taras Balderdash: Only the Way is good at beginning things and also good at bringing things to completion
[7:21]  Basil Brooks: I'm just listening
[7:21]  Corwyn Allen: The never ending circle
[7:21]  Taras Balderdash: Lagged
[7:22]  Corwyn Allen: Known as the worm ourobouros in European mythos
[7:22]  Taras Balderdash: So what is being said is about the Yang and the Yin
[7:22]  Taras Balderdash: The Yang is that which begins
[7:22]  metta Botanical: I do hope you will feel free to toss any thoughts you have into the mix, Basil, we are very free flowing here, each learning from how the other sees things
[7:22]  Taras Balderdash: The Yin is that which completes
[7:22]  Taras Balderdash: Laozi is saying that only the Dao is both
[7:22]  Taras Balderdash: It is beyond the Yang and Yin
[7:22]  Basil Brooks: ty metta...i feel very comfortable
[7:23]  metta Botanical: although today we do seem to be in a rather unusual mode - Tao interrupting silliness rather than the reverse that we usually have here *grins*
[7:23]  Taras Balderdash: Or outside it. and within it at once, but not limited to the changes
[7:23]  Corwyn Allen: Taras, I think this is also why representations of Yin and Yang, the black and white circle
[7:23]  Corwyn Allen: Also have a dot of the other color in each side
[7:24]  Corwyn Allen: So we are reminded that with Yin is Yang, and within Yang is Yin
[7:24]  Corwyn Allen: Part and Apart
[7:24]  Taras Balderdash: Yes, one grows until it becomes the other
[7:24]  Taras Balderdash: And they are inexorably linked
[7:24]  Taras Balderdash: But people always seek that which came before and that which comes after
[7:25]  Taras Balderdash: The origin of the universe in the West
[7:25]  Taras Balderdash: or in the East, that which is outside the wheel of changes
[7:25]  Taras Balderdash: So we have the concepts of tai qi, the supreme ultimate
[7:26]  Taras Balderdash: Like the Ain Soph of the Kaballah
[7:26]  Taras Balderdash: And no, I can't every figure out how to spell Qaballah
[7:26]  Bee Blessed smiles... it is spelled in more thanone way
[7:26]  Taras Balderdash: There is controvery in Chinese philosphy on whether the Dao is 'before' theTai QI
[7:26]  metta Botanical smiles at how neatly Taras dealt with the fact that the one word has various accepted spellings
[7:26]  Taras Balderdash: or the same thing, etc.
[7:27]  Corwyn Allen: Try it in Hebrew
[7:27]  Taras Balderdash: Yes, it's one of those words. Since nearly all Chinese words are like that in the West it's not a big deal
[7:27]  Taras Balderdash: Tao Te Ching Dao De Jing, for instance.
[7:27]  Suzanne Logan gets up to shut the doors against the chilly air
[7:27]  Basil Brooks: please explainn kaballah
[7:28]  Suzanne Logan carefully kneels smoothing her kimono beneath her
[7:28]  Taras Balderdash: Ah, that's why everyone is so quiet. They were frozen to the cushions
[7:28]  Corwyn Allen: Oh my, that could take awhile, explaining Kaballah
[7:28]  metta Botanical apologizes to Suzanne as she thinks she may have been the one who left it open
[7:28]  Basil Brooks: in a nutshell
[7:28]  Taras Balderdash: Well,if you've ever seen the tree of life symbol, that iss Qaballa. It is a Jewish system of symbols and interpretations
[7:28]  Suzanne Logan: mmmone has gone missing ..
[7:29]  Suzanne Logan gracefully rises
[7:29]  Taras Balderdash: It iss based on the Bible, but is a complex logical construct understood by very few.
[7:29]  Corwyn Allen: It's also some numerology too isnt' it?
[7:29]  Taras Balderdash: Yes, it has that element
[7:29]  Taras Balderdash: Gematria, for instance
[7:29]  Corwyn Allen: Very complex.
[7:29]  metta Botanical: It is actually based on the Torah, not on the Bible
[7:30]  Corwyn Allen: Well, the Torah is the Bible, in Judaic terms
[7:30]  Taras Balderdash: In the context of our discussion, it is similar to some of the Song Dynasty charts of reality
[7:30]  Corwyn Allen: The Old Testament comes from Torah
[7:30]  Taras Balderdash: Like that of Zhou Dun Yi
[7:30]  Taras Balderdash: Well, yes, it iss based on the Jewish Bible
[7:30]  Basil Brooks: what influences does it bear on our discussion todat
[7:30]  metta Botanical: Bible tends to mean the Christian Bible
[7:30]  Basil Brooks: y
[7:31]  metta Botanical: Torah are the books in the Christian Bible that are part of Judaism
[7:31]  Taras Balderdash: Which includes the Torah, Prophets, Wisdom, etc.
[7:31]  Corwyn Allen: The Old Testament, yes.
[7:31]  Taras Balderdash: Torah is the first five books
[7:31]  Taras Balderdash: The books of Moses
[7:31]  Corwyn Allen: The New Testament was never part of Torah as it came Anno Domini
[7:32]  Basil Brooks: arent we discussing verse 41
[7:32]  Sway's Creations Update Group: *** Sway's Snowman Contest Winner *** Congratulations to the Winners! come to Sways Creation to see the Winners or check out the blog...
[7:32]  Taras Balderdash: Anyway, there is a concept of Ain Soph, the supreme ultimate
[7:32]  metta Botanical: yes, and Old Testament is a Christian term, I was only trying to clarify that Caballah is not based on the Christian Bible but is Judaism based
[7:32]  Basil Brooks: sorry
[7:32]  Bee Blessed smiles at Basil... our diverging discussions would be a surprise
[7:32]  Taras Balderdash: and that is the only thing I've found in the west that is really like the Dao
[7:32]  Taras Balderdash: I'm trying to pull the discussion gradually eastward. lol
[7:32]  metta Botanical: If I understand correctly, Caballah is also based on the Talmud, was an offshoot of it in fact
[7:33]  Taras Balderdash: Yes, Qaballah is only for advanced students fo the Torah, Mishnah, Talmud, etc.
[7:33]  Taras Balderdash: Along with a lot of amateur occultists
[7:33]  metta Botanical: yes
[7:34]  Taras Balderdash: But let's return to the text before Suzanne swats us...
[7:34]  Taras Balderdash: with one of those big Zen get attention sticks.
[7:34]  metta Botanical hands the floor back to Taras as she wanted to clarify only that one thing as she was concerened with the use of the word "Bible" in that context
[7:34]  Suzanne Logan smiles... you see I am not rushing you all today
[7:34]  Suzanne Logan smiles...and waits
[7:34]  Taras Balderdash: Jewish Bible is the proper term in the context
[7:34]  metta Botanical grins. I think today, Suzanne is saying "hey, where did my usual discussions go?"
[7:35]  Taras Balderdash: It has nothing to do with the Christian Bible
[7:35]  Bee Blessed smiles at Suzanne... admiring her tranquility
[7:35]  Basil Brooks: ty Taras! ;-)
[7:35]  Taras Balderdash: *pokes smiling Suzanne to see if she is catatonic
[7:36]  Suzanne Logan smiles back at Bee... *whispers...working on learning Tao principles of group facilitation
[7:36]  metta Botanical: I am still choking on the term Jewish Bible, Taras, but we can talk about that another time. For me it is Torah *smiles quietly*
[7:36]  Corwyn Allen: Perhaps Holy Book would be appropriate
[7:36]  Taras Balderdash: Heer's a handy technique
[7:37]  Corwyn Allen: Ah, another find product of Acme
[7:37]  Taras Balderdash: The TOrah is part of the Jewish Bible
[7:37]  Suzanne Logan: the Torah or the Pentateuch are the first 5 books of the Bible
[7:37]  Taras Balderdash: It is is how the JPS describes the book
[7:37]  metta Botanical smiles at Suzanne, thinking how appropriate her words are given that the Tao is for wise leaders
[7:37]  Bee Blessed laughs behind her hand, her eyes streaming...
[7:37]  Taras Balderdash: JPS = Jewish Publication Society
[7:37]  Suzanne Logan: the laws of Moses
[7:38]  Suzanne Logan: Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy
[7:38]  metta Botanical: Taras, I do understand your technical point, it is just that both as a Judaic Studies major and as a Jew, what I am used to hearing is Torah, not Jewish Bible
[7:38]  Taras Balderdash: Ok, enough with the Torah already, or I start sharing anvils!
[7:38]  Bee Blessed peeks at Basil, hoping he was not expecting pure industry and serious study... this group builds strands of humor into our study and it makes it stronger lesson
[7:38]  Suzanne Logan moves the group forward
[7:38]  Suzanne Logan: let us continue please
[7:39]  Taras Balderdash: Ok, but Qaballa also works with Ezekiel
[7:39]  Suzanne Logan: as Master of the Tao class I get to say *grins
[7:39]  Taras Balderdash: So that's in the Prophets.
[7:39]  Basil Brooks: hmmmmmmmmmmm ... i am open to all ;-)))
[7:39]  Corwyn Allen: Wouldn't that be Mistress?
[7:39]  -: The Tao begot one.
[7:39]  Suzanne Logan: hai Mistress
[7:39]  -: One begot two.
[7:39]  -: Two begot three.
[7:39]  -: And three begot the ten thousand things
[7:39]  -:
[7:39]  -: The ten thousand things carry yin and embrace the yang.
[7:39]  -: They achieve harmony by combining these forces.
[7:39]  -:
[7:39]  -: Men hate to be "orphaned," "widowed," or "worthless"
[7:40]  -: But this is how kings and lords describe themselves.
[7:40]  -:
[7:40]  -: For one gains by losing
[7:40]  -: And loses by gaining.
[7:40]  -:
[7:40]  -: What others teach, I also teach; that is;
[7:40]  -: "A violent man will die a violent deaths!"
[7:40]  -: This will be the essence of my teaching.
[7:40]  -: *********
[7:40]  -: B.
[7:40]  -: The Tao gives birth to One.
[7:40]  -: One gives birth to Two.
[7:40]  -: Two gives birth to Three.
[7:40]  -: Three gives birth to all things.
[7:40]  -:
[7:40]  -: All things have their backs to the female
[7:40]  -: and stand facing the male.
[7:40]  -: When male and female combine,
[7:40]  -: all things achieve harmony.
[7:40]  -:
[7:40]  -: Ordinary men hate solitude.
[7:40]  -: But the Master makes use of it,
[7:40]  -: embracing his aloneness, realizing
[7:40]  -: he is one with the whole universe.
[7:40]  -: *********
[7:40]  -: C.
[7:40]  -: The Tao existed before its name,
[7:41]  -: and from its name, the opposites evolved,
[7:41]  -: giving rise to three divisions,
[7:41]  -: and then to names abundant.
[7:41]  -: These things embrace receptively,
[7:41]  -: achieving inner harmony,
[7:41]  -: and by their unity create
[7:41]  -: the inner world of man.
[7:41]  -: No man wishes to be seen
[7:41]  -: as worthless in another's eyes,
[7:41]  -: but the wise leader describes himself this way,
[7:41]  -: for he knows that one may gain by losing,
[7:41]  -: and lose by gaining,
[7:41]  -: and that a violent man
[7:41]  -: will not die a natural death.
[7:41]  -: ~~END~~
[7:41]  Suzanne Logan: these interpretations are interesting one from another
[7:41]  Taras Balderdash: TheOne is the Dao manifest in reality, i.e. it has form. The Two are Yin and Yang. What then are the Three?
[7:42]  Suzanne Logan: the tao is before the one
[7:42]  Corwyn Allen: Whoops, we lost Taras
[7:43]  Corwyn Allen: Well, I think the Tao is teh One.
[7:43]  Suzanne Logan: he may have been told it is time to go...they were going somewhere today in rl
[7:43]  Corwyn Allen: Ah
[7:43]  metta Botanical: I like "[7:40] -: Ordinary men hate solitude.
[7:40] -: But the Master makes use of it,
[7:40] -: embracing his aloneness, realizing
[7:40] -: he is one with the whole universe.' but it does seem to differ from A and C on this one
[7:43]  Corwyn Allen: wb Taras
[7:43]  Suzanne Logan: oh here he is back...welcome back Taras-san
[7:43]  metta Botanical welcomes Taras back
[7:44]  Taras Balderdash: THanks. That was fun!
[7:44]  Suzanne Logan: you mind if I take us into the wild of Judeo Christianity with this?
[7:44]  Suzanne Logan: you have all been indulgent with me in the past
[7:44]  Suzanne Logan winces a little
[7:44]  Corwyn Allen: Lead on MacDuff
[7:44]  Suzanne Logan nods...
[7:44]  metta Botanical: what I like about our study of Tao is how we blend so many traditions
[7:45]  Suzanne Logan: we have the numerology of the three
[7:45]  Suzanne Logan: often seen in our body, soul, spirit
[7:45]  Suzanne Logan: Father Son Holy Spirit
[7:45]  Suzanne Logan: This verse separates the Tao from the beginning of all of this
[7:45]  Corwyn Allen: Brahma, Shiva and Krishna
[7:46]  Suzanne Logan: as if it were the concept of origin
[7:46]  Suzanne Logan: it says it begot one
[7:46]  Suzanne Logan: that means it is not one
[7:46]  Suzanne Logan: one begot two
[7:46]  Suzanne Logan: etc
[7:46]  Taras Balderdash: In Chinese, there is a cooncept of the three powers
[7:46]  Taras Balderdash: It is Heaven Earth and Man
[7:47]  Taras Balderdash: But it is odd to say that Heaven Earth and Man originated all other things
[7:47]  Suzanne Logan nods...the numerology is significant here... also a three-stranded cord cannot be broken
[7:47]  Taras Balderdash: When teh world of humanity is a part of the ten thoussand things
[7:47]  Corwyn Allen thinks of teh Charmed Ones.
[7:47]  Suzanne Logan: and then it says that the 3 begot the ten thousand things
[7:48]  Basil Brooks: why is that significant
[7:48]  Basil Brooks: the 10 thousand things are what it is
[7:48]  Suzanne Logan: now... let me finish... "in the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the same was in the beginning with God -all things were made by him and without him was not anything made that was made
[7:49]  Suzanne Logan: the 10 thousand things is just a word smithing of the Tao meaing "everything"
[7:49]  Taras Balderdash: I recently read a discussion that contrast the 1, 2 3 progression of Laozi with the Yi Jing, in which it is Dao, 1, 2, 4, 8, etc.
[7:50]  Basil Brooks: I say the 10 thousand things always were....god did no make them
[7:50]  Basil Brooks: god is part of the 10thousand things
[7:50]  Suzanne Logan: or begot them
[7:51]  Corwyn Allen: The dichotomy here, Basil, is that the CHinese are not dealing with a deity per se
[7:51]  Corwyn Allen: Most other religions do.
[7:51]  Basil Brooks: are we??
[7:51]  Suzanne Logan: no...
[7:51]  Basil Brooks: excuse me
[7:51]  Suzanne Logan: but it is interesting to me to see ties in the world's wisdom... some congruencies
[7:52]  Suzanne Logan: part of my natural curiosity i think
[7:52]  Corwyn Allen: Yes, Suzanne, there are congruencies
[7:52]  Corwyn Allen: The trick is to drill down past the deity and see the mataphor.
[7:52]  metta Botanical: I love to explore that space in which all of the major religions overlap, I think it is in that space that we can find glimmers of truth
[7:52]  Taras Balderdash: There is a Supreme Deity in Chinese, Shang Di, but not a Creator
[7:52]  Suzanne Logan: so what does all this begetting have to do with men hating to be alone?
[7:53]  Suzanne Logan: this whole verse seems disconnected to me
[7:53]  Taras Balderdash: lol
[7:53]  Suzanne Logan: and we already know men hate to be alone *grins
[7:53]  Corwyn Allen thinks the ceiling should be painted beige
[7:53]  Taras Balderdash: I just took your line " so what does all this begetting have to do with men hating to be alone?" out of context
[7:53]  Suzanne Logan: *laughing loud in real life
[7:54]  Suzanne Logan: *laughing even harder
[7:54]  Taras Balderdash: And thought that men alone think of nothing but begeting
[7:54]  metta Botanical: I actually can see a connection with those two parts but I don't see where the violent men die a violent death ties in to the rest of it
[7:54]  Suzanne Logan: duh...oh now I get it!! *slaps her forehead
[7:54]  Corwyn Allen thinks definitely beige
[7:54]  Suzanne Logan blushes beet red!
[7:55]  Basil Brooks: no ones ever alone unless they bring it upon them selves
[7:55]  Bee Blessed finds that a becoming color on you Suzanne... matches your garment
[7:55]  Suzanne Logan: that is a good point Basil
[7:55]  Corwyn Allen: It ties into the Western adage of he who lives by the sword dis by the sword
[7:55]  Taras Balderdash: Yes, the last verse seems oddly placed
[7:55]  metta Botanical: For me, I see the begetting part and the alone part as all showing that we arise from and are all part of one Source and it is painful to use when we feel disconnected from it, feel "alone"
[7:55]  Basil Brooks: agreed
[7:56]  Taras Balderdash: Or the modern version: Live like Tony Soprano, die like one of his crew.
[7:56]  Corwyn Allen grins at Taras
[7:56]  Suzanne Logan: good point Metta.. and then the part of the leaders realizing..or describing that state as normal to their rank and responsibility
[7:56]  Basil Brooks: death is so overrated
[7:56]  metta Botanical: ah ok, Taras, your swrd comment helps me to make sense of how that fits into this
[7:57]  Suzanne Logan checks the time and softly gives our 3 minute warning
[7:58]  Suzanne Logan: *two minute that is*
[7:58]  Suzanne Logan: lets wrap up
[7:58]  Suzanne Logan: what is our take away from today?
[7:58]  metta Botanical grins as she wonders if Basil will want to try this again given that this was one of our rather topsy turvy sessions today
[7:58]  Corwyn Allen: We did stray farther afield today didn't we.
[7:59]  Taras Balderdash: Try not to be alone. Don't get all hung up in begetting, and don't live like Tony Soprano.
[7:59]  Basil Brooks: hahahahaa.... it's all good ;-)))
[7:59]  metta Botanical: As I said earlier, today was more Silliness interrupted by Tao rather than our usual reverse *grins*
[7:59]  Corwyn Allen: Nope, I'm a tenor, nor a Soprano
[7:59]  Suzanne Logan: *smiles... it was alright though
[7:59]  Taras Balderdash: Aiii!
[7:59]  Suzanne Logan: I think we learned something about each other too
[7:59]  Suzanne Logan: I have a proposal to make...
[8:00]  Basil Brooks: I hate to regress.... but I'd like to talk about chapter 11
[8:00]  Suzanne Logan: *smiles... I can stay and visit with you if you like Basil-san
[8:00]  Suzanne Logan: our time is up for the group
[8:00]  Corwyn Allen: What is your proposal Okasan?
[8:01]  Basil Brooks: ty Suzzanne week maybe
[8:01]  Suzanne Logan: but quickly I have a thought to leave with you all.. If you want to do this though it can be a little restrictive....
[8:01]  Suzanne Logan: when you want to make a point you can "raise your hand" by typing !
[8:01]  Suzanne Logan: and when finished can type *
[8:01]  Suzanne Logan: that might help us from interrupting each other...
[8:02]  metta Botanical giggles as she asks what one does when you want to throw an anvil?
[8:02]  Suzanne Logan: thank you Metta
[8:02]  Corwyn Allen: You yell "Incoming!!!"
[8:02]  metta Botanical bursts out laughing
[8:02]  Taras Balderdash: Thwows one!
[8:02]  metta Botanical chuckles
[8:02]  Suzanne Logan: I may need to throw pillows at certain parties... *looks at Taras and Corwyn
[8:03]  Taras Balderdash: Or tomatoes
[8:03]  Suzanne Logan: not sure if they have an asterisk key on their boards
[8:03]  Taras Balderdash: That then don't work
[8:03]  Corwyn Allen: Hmmm, I hear my mother calling
[8:03]  Basil Brooks: ty all ..... i hope I didn't disrupt toomuch
[8:03]  Suzanne Logan ducks
[8:03]  Taras Balderdash: Puts at SL
[8:03]  metta Botanical: oh is that why are cushions are red hide tomato stains?
[8:03]  Bee Blessed must point out that she is rarely capable of tyoping a ! that does not come out as a 1 instead
[8:03]  Suzanne Logan: blood
[8:03]  Corwyn Allen: Taras, I think she wants to kick our asterisks.
[8:03]  Basil Brooks: hahahahahahaha ;-)))
[8:04]  Taras Balderdash: Yup
[8:04]  Suzanne Logan: *laughs LOUD!
[8:04]  Taras Balderdash: I've chastised myself
[8:04]  metta Botanical: as you can see, Basil, we meet weekly and have a feel for each other's personalities, something that is an integral part of our class
[8:04]  Suzanne Logan: tch
[8:04]  Taras Balderdash: My barber always asks why my head is so flat.
[8:04]  Suzanne Logan: Basil... it was wonderful to have you here!!!
[8:04]  Bee Blessed: loved the sound effect... another fine Acme product?
[8:04]  Suzanne Logan: I hope you come again!
[8:04]  Taras Balderdash: Yup. ought it from a coyote.
[8:04]  Taras Balderdash: *bougt
[8:04]  Suzanne Logan: Oh .. Metta will you be able to do the notes for me again?
[8:05]  Corwyn Allen: Bedeyabedeyabedeya That's all folks
[8:05]  Suzanne Logan bows to honor you
[8:05]  Corwyn Allen bows respectfully.
[8:05]  metta Botanical: absolutely, Suzanne, I promised to do so each week for youand I plan to do so
[8:05]  Suzanne Logan: have a wonderful day everyone... Basil.. please remind us about 11 next time
[8:05]  Taras Balderdash: Bye now!
[8:05]  Corwyn Allen: Bye Taras
[8:05]  Bee Blessed: watches Taras spin and gets dizzy
[8:06]  Bee Blessed: before he poofs
[8:06]  Corwyn Allen: And I have to go shopping and then come home to cook
[8:06]  Suzanne Logan: I wonder where our door is ?
[8:06]  Corwyn Allen: Need to see if the store has bok choy
[8:06]  Corwyn Allen: Both doors are there
[8:06]  Suzanne Logan blinks
[8:06]  metta Botanical: ok, now I knew this was an unusual class, but our leader has lost the door?
[8:06]  Suzanne Logan: *sighs... my viewer apparently is tripping
[8:06]  Bee Blessed wonders if it has joined a certain window...
[8:06]  Corwyn Allen: It just seems the timer on the auro shut is out of whack
[8:07]  Suzanne Logan: oh we took it off
[8:07]  Corwyn Allen: Ah
[8:07]  Basil Brooks: ty all ...bows graciously
[8:07]  Corwyn Allen: That explains it
[8:07]  Suzanne Logan: no timer now so we have to remember to close it
[8:07]  Corwyn Allen: Thank you for coming Basil
[8:07]  Suzanne Logan: by for now Basil and all
[8:07]  metta Botanical will keep that in mind
[8:07]  metta Botanical: fare well all
[8:07]  Bee Blessed: bye Basil
[8:07]  Bee Blessed: ty for coming
[8:07]  Corwyn Allen: Ciao
[8:08]  Suzanne Logan: bye Corwyn... thank you for coming
[8:08]  Corwyn Allen: And I need to log
[8:08]  Corwyn Allen: Bye all
[8:08]  Corwyn Allen: See you soon
[8:08]  Suzanne Logan: /
[8:08]  Corwyn Allen bows and smiles.
[8:08]  Suzanne Logan bows to honor you

V. 39-40, January 18, 2009

[7:10]  Suzanne Logan: today we are starting with verse 39 which can also be thought of as "then and now"
[7:10]  Suzanne Logan begins
[7:10]  -: Thirty Nine:  Then and Now
[7:10]  Taras Balderdash: At least if SL is fucnctioning well enough to talk. It seems particularly poor today.
[7:10]  -: A.
[7:10]  -: These things from ancient times arise from one:
[7:10]  -: The sky is whole and clear.
[7:10]  -: The earth is whole and firm.
[7:11]  -: The spirit is whole and strong.
[7:11]  -: The valley is whole and full.
[7:11]  -: The ten thousand things are whole and alive.
[7:11]  -: Kings and lords are whole, and the country is upright.
[7:11]  -: All these are in virtue of wholeness.
[7:11]  -:
[7:11]  -: The clarity of the sky prevents its falling.
[7:11]  -: The firmness of the earth prevents its splitting.
[7:11]  -: The strength of the spirit prevents it being used up.
[7:11]  -: The fullness of the valley prevents its running fry.
[7:11]  -: The growth of the ten thousand things prevents their dying out.
[7:11]  -: The leadership of kings and lords prevents the downfall of the country.
[7:11]  -:
[7:11]  -: Therefore the humble is the root of the nobble.
[7:12]  -: Princes and lords consider themselves "orphaned," "widowed," and "worthless."
[7:12]  -: The low is the foundation of the high.
[7:12]  -: Do they not depend on being humble?
[7:12]  -:
[7:12]  -: Too much success is not an advantage.
[7:12]  -: Do not tinkle like jade
[7:12]  -: Or clatter like stone chimes.
[7:12]  -: ******
[7:12]  -: B.
[7:12]  -: In harmony with the Tao,
[7:12]  -: the sky is clear and spacious,
[7:12]  -: the earth is solid and full,
[7:12]  -: all creature flourish together,
[7:12]  -: content with the way they are,
[7:12]  -: endlessly repeating themselves,
[7:12]  -: endlessly renewed.
[7:12]  -:
[7:12]  -: When man interferes with the Tao,
[7:12]  -: the sky becomes filthy,
[7:12]  -: the earth becomes depleted,
[7:12]  -: the equilibrium crumbles,
[7:12]  -: creatures become extinct.
[7:12]  -:
[7:12]  -: The Master views the parts with compassion,
[7:12]  -: because he understands the whole.
[7:12]  -: His constant practice is humility.
[7:12]  -: He doesn't glitter like a jewel
[7:12]  -: but lets himself be shaped by the Tao,
[7:12]  -: as rugged and common as stone.
[7:12]  -: **********
[7:12]  -: C
[7:13]  -: From the principle which is called the Tao,
[7:13]  -: and the people have sufficient
[7:13]  -: will surely suffer much.
[7:13]  -: The firmness of the dew filled earth
[7:13]  -: gives it its life;
[7:13]  -: the energy of the inner world
[7:13]  -: prevents its becoming drained of strength;
[7:13]  -: its fullness prevents it running dry.
[7:13]  -: The growth of all things
[7:13]  -: prevents their dying.
[7:13]  -: The work of the leader should ensure
[7:13]  -: the prosperity of the populace.
[7:13]  -: So it is said,
[7:13]  -: "humility is the root
[7:13]  -: of great nobility;
[7:13]  -: the low forms a foundation
[7:13]  -: for the great;
[7:13]  -: and princes consider themselves
[7:13]  -: the sky, the earth, and creativity are one,
[7:13]  -: to be of little worth".
[7:13]  -: the sky is clear, the earth is firm,
[7:13]  -: and the spirit of the inner world is full.
[7:13]  -: Each depends on humility therefore;
[7:13]  -: it is of no advantage to have too much success,
[7:13]  -: so do not sound loudly like jade bells,
[7:13]  -: nor clatter like stone chimes.
[7:13]  -: **~END~**
[7:13]  -:
[7:13]  -: When the ruler of the land is whole,
[7:13]  -: the nation too is strong, alive and well,
[7:13]  -: When the daytime sky is dark
[7:13]  -: and overcast like night,
[7:13]  -: the nation and its people
[7:13]  -: to meet their earthly needs.
[7:14]  Suzanne Logan: I'll give you a moment to look at those....
[7:14]  angel Scarborough quickly says thank you to Taras before focusing on these (I did not want to interpret them to say that earlier)
[7:15]  Suzanne Logan: I think the first one speaks to me the best
[7:15]  Lysandra Goodnight: to me also
[7:15]  Camah Karillion: Second on for me.
[7:15]  Bee Blessed: it is interesting that the first verse speaks so much of the rightness of things as they are as long as man does not interfere... and yet the feeling I get from the latter 2 is that is is the humbleness of the leaders that determines the success of a citystate
[7:16]  Camah Karillion: Namely this line, "The Master views the parts with compassion, because he understands the whole."
[7:16]  Bee Blessed: I guess... the leaders, especially today, have such an impact on nature in their decisions...
[7:17]  Suzanne Logan nods actually there is more to this verse than first meets the eye
[7:17]  Taras Balderdash: That 'humbleness' has always seemed strange to me. I is true that the leader of a monarchy or a tyrant in a Communist state has no car of his own, but he owns ALL the cars, so he is indeed 'orphaned', but he is a gilded orphan.
[7:17]  Suzanne Logan: here we see the value of leadership and also the qualities that make for wholeness in the land or in a person
[7:18]  Corwyn Allen nods at Taras' comment
[7:18]  Bee Blessed nods to Taras, thank you that helped clarify that part, I had been confused by the "orphaned"
[7:18]  Dusk Griswold is Offline
[7:19]  Lysandra Goodnight: Or perhaps the Kings and lords like to "say" that they are no different than anyone else... even if they do not actually believe it.
[7:19]  Suzanne Logan: look to the part in the first (A) that speaks to the qualities that create wholeness
[7:19]  Taras Balderdash: Well, it actually arose from the way emperors refer to them selves. Since they are on the throne because their father died (usually), they call themselves the one man, or the orphaned one.
[7:19]  Lysandra Goodnight: I read this as saying that when things are as they were intended to be then there is harmony, balance and order.
[7:21]  Bee Blessed: agreed Lysandra
[7:21]  Corwyn Allen: When all parts recognize they are part of the whole all is in accord with Tao.
[7:21]  Suzanne Logan: that is a good point Taras-san and yes Lysandra - I saw that too....the qualities of clarity, firmness, strength, fullness, growth... all of these support good leadership and harmony
[7:21]  Lysandra Goodnight: And that.. a lord or Prince or King or Emperor.. regardless of how high one becomes... they're still human.. part of the earth.. part of the whole.. like everything else.
[7:21]  Corwyn Allen: When the King recognizes this he is whole and so is his land
[7:21]  Corwyn Allen: When the individual realizes this he too is whole
[7:21]  Bee Blessed: ah tha is the crux, that the leader recognise this
[7:21]  Suzanne Logan: and the leader is....?
[7:22]  Corwyn Allen: But when the kind or person steps out of the whole and try and be apart
[7:22]  Corwyn Allen: Then one breaks with Tao
[7:22]  Corwyn Allen: And teh whole it broken
[7:22]  Taras Balderdash: the Ma Wang Dui version of the text is interesting. But when this is pushed to the utmost, It will mean that not knowing when to stop in being limpid heaven will split; etc.
[7:22]  Lysandra Goodnight: Or tries to change something that does not neec changing..
[7:22]  Lysandra Goodnight: need*
[7:22]  Taras Balderdash: So excess leads to opposite
[7:22]  Corwyn Allen nods at Taras
[7:22]  Taras Balderdash: And by inference, an excess of orderliness leads to chaos
[7:23]  Corwyn Allen: In the time of the great unifier, Genghis Khan, he created the Yasa or laws
[7:23]  Taras Balderdash: Which is why people with neat desks are actually dangerous anarchists.
[7:23]  Corwyn Allen: It was forbidden to mine for metals.
[7:23]  Lysandra Goodnight: well, not excess so much as.. interfering where it's not needed.. like previous verses.. do only what is required or neccessary... and no more..
[7:23]  Corwyn Allen: It was forbidden to bath in teh stream.
[7:23]  Corwyn Allen: One could take the metals that lay on the earth
[7:23]  Corwyn Allen: Or carry water away from the stream to bathe
[7:23]  Corwyn Allen: And thereby the land and the stream were not currupted
[7:24]  Corwyn Allen: corrupted
[7:24]  Lysandra Goodnight nods at Allen san's words
[7:24]  Lysandra Goodnight: Just showing there that greed and averice are at the root of corruption
[7:24]  Taras Balderdash: Yes, but that very set of rules, which in some ways are reflected in Feng Shui...
[7:24]  Taras Balderdash: caused excess
[7:24]  Corwyn Allen: There are a great many similarities between the Yasa of Genghis Khan and the Constition and Ammendments of the US.
[7:25]  Corwyn Allen: In what way Taras-san
[7:25]  Taras Balderdash: The only reason we have the Ma Wang Dui text of the Lao Zi, for instance, is that Chinese people started to dig in the earth again
[7:25]  Taras Balderdash: And even to dig up the ancient tombs
[7:25]  Taras Balderdash: So they disturbed the dragon lines, and produced great treasures.
[7:26]  Corwyn Allen: Ah
[7:26]  Corwyn Allen: But how did that set of rules cause this to happen?
[7:26]  Taras Balderdash: But I will have to look into the Yasa
[7:26]  Corwyn Allen: I thought Feng Shui was working in accord with nature.
[7:26]  Corwyn Allen: Or do I misunderstand?
[7:26]  Taras Balderdash: Although nominally my AV served under Genghis Khan, my RL human has only read a little about him.
[7:26]  Corwyn Allen smiles
[7:27]  angel Scarborough: may I toss in something non serious here - as to how the Tao and SL together gave me a chuckle during this
[7:27]  Suzanne Logan: yes Angel please
[7:27]  Taras Balderdash: Yes, it is in accord with nature, but it has strict rules to attain good fortune on earth
[7:27]  Taras Balderdash: *listens
[7:27]  Corwyn Allen: Ah, but here we must define what "good fortune" means.
[7:27]  Lysandra Goodnight smiles
[7:27]  Corwyn Allen listens to Angel
[7:28]  angel Scarborough: a friend of mine hopped offline and online while Suzanne was giving the text. The timing made me chuckle, let me show you:
[7:28]  angel Scarborough: [7:12] -: In harmony with the Tao,
[7:12] Stalloy Meredith is Offline
[7:28]  angel Scarborough: [7:13] -: When the ruler of the land is whole,
[7:13] Stalloy Meredith is Online
[7:28]  Suzanne Logan: *laughs
[7:28]  Bee Blessed giggles
[7:28]  angel Scarborough smiles softly
[7:28]  Corwyn Allen chuckles
[7:28]  Lysandra Goodnight: hehehehehe
[7:28]  Suzanne Logan: shall we move to the next verse?
[7:28]  Taras Balderdash: Now that's good feng shui!
[7:28]  Lysandra Goodnight: ahhh... the secret of good comedy............. timing
[7:28]  Camah Karillion shakes his head and groans softly.
[7:29]  angel Scarborough: Yes, Suzanne, angel is ready and will behave
[7:29]  Corwyn Allen: A moment please Okasan
[7:29]  Taras Balderdash: lots of rich grandchildren
[7:29]  Taras Balderdash: The concept of good fortune in China is easy, y the way......
[7:29]  Suzanne Logan looks to Corwyn... and waits
[7:29]  Corwyn Allen: I was waiting to talk to Taras-san more about good fortune
[7:30]  Corwyn Allen: I think there is a defininte difference between being fortunate and having a fortune if you will.
[7:30]  Lysandra Goodnight: I'm minded somehow in this verse... of how some large industries are starting to show a more taoist way of doing things.. like logging where they farm only a section at a time then replant... or mining..once they've gotten what they want.. they return the land to a more natural state..
[7:30]  Lysandra Goodnight: in other words... not just taking.. but giving something back to the earth..
[7:30]  Corwyn Allen: And I think that when the text refers to "good fortune" is can be summed up not in having riches (tinkling like jade) but in being enriched by being at one with Tao and recognizing that the parts around you, your good friends for exmaple, make you fortunate.
[7:31]  Taras Balderdash: Yes, China has had to have such regulations for a very long time. Americans are used to having more resources than people. China has had a lack of resources for thousands of years
[7:31]  Suzanne Logan: I like that Corwyn
[7:31]  Bee Blessed: I would hope there are good intentions there, Lysanda, and not merely the eye of Joe Public upon them for a change
[7:31]  Lysandra Goodnight: good point, Corwyn
[7:31]  Corwyn Allen: Would you concur Taras'san?
[7:32]  Taras Balderdash: Nice thought, and perhaps that works for Daoist monks, but for the rest of the culture rich grandchildren trump everything else.
[7:32]  Lysandra Goodnight: again.. it speaks of that balance that the Tao tries to teach us to attain.. good fortune is in being healthy, having only what you need, not burdening yourself with accolades and wealth that only weighs you down..... balance.. harmony..
[7:32]  Corwyn Allen nods "Cultural differences,:
[7:32]  Suzanne Logan: what is interesting about this group is that we have the blessing of Taras-san's historical spices, our existential spices, and our practical spices as well
[7:32]  Lysandra Goodnight chuckles
[7:33]  Suzanne Logan: I need to press us on further... we need to do more than one verse a session!
[7:33]  Taras Balderdash: Quite true. Again, that is why Daoism, especially the philosophical, abstract form of it one attains from the bare text....
[7:33]  Suzanne Logan: *laughs
[7:33]  Corwyn Allen: And would not the intent of the Lao Tsu be to make us all realize that we need not be monks in order to act like monks?
[7:33]  Bee Blessed smiles... a spicey group indeed
[7:33]  Taras Balderdash: is totally at odds with Confucianism
[7:33]  Suzanne Logan: I can see that Taras and Corwin need to sit together for tea one day
[7:34]  Suzanne Logan: I will be pleased to serve if you like
[7:34]  Taras Balderdash: Very true!
[7:34]  Corwyn Allen smiles "I would enjoy that very much."
[7:34]  Suzanne Logan: *smiles. and shifts herself a little so she can read the text for verse 40
[7:34]  Corwyn Allen: I can recommend some good texts on Genghis Khan having made a study o fhim and his culture
[7:34]  Corwyn Allen: Domo arigato Taras-san
[7:35]  Taras Balderdash: Splendid!
[7:35]  Suzanne Logan: *softly clears her throat..
[7:35]  -: Forty: All is Paradox
[7:35]  Taras Balderdash: And thank you, Corwyn Xian Sheng
[7:35]  Corwyn Allen listens intently to Okasan
[7:35]  -: A.
[7:35]  -: Returning is the motion of the Tao.
[7:35]  -: Yielding is the way of the Tao.
[7:35]  -: The ten thousand things are born of being.
[7:35]  -: Being is born of not being.
[7:35]  -: ~~~~~~~~
[7:35]  -: B.
[7:35]  -: Return is the movement of the Tao.
[7:36]  -:
[7:36]  -: All things are born of being.
[7:36]  -: Yielding is the way of the Tao.
[7:36]  -: Being is born of non-being.
[7:36]  -: ~~~~~~~~~~
[7:36]  -: C.
[7:36]  -: The motion of nature
[7:36]  -: is cyclic and returning.
[7:36]  -: Its way is to yield,
[7:36]  -: for to yield is to become.
[7:36]  -: All things are born of being;
[7:36]  -: being is born of non-being.
[7:36]  -: *~END~*
[7:36]  Corwyn Allen: When I read lines like these...
[7:36]  Suzanne Logan: short and sweet
[7:37]  Corwyn Allen: I always put them in the context of physics
[7:37]  Corwyn Allen: Big bang and all that
[7:37]  Lysandra Goodnight: Ah.. once again.. the cycle of existence... Birth becomes life becomes death becomes rebirth and so on and so on..
[7:37]  Corwyn Allen: Non-being.
[7:37]  Corwyn Allen: BANG
[7:37]  Corwyn Allen: Being
[7:37]  Camah Karillion: Well it is more than that.
[7:37]  angel Scarborough quickly tosses in that her friend hopped offline and online again so that this time she got: [7:35] -: Return is the movement of the Tao.
[7:36] Stalloy Meredith is Online
[7:37]  angel Scarborough sits on her paws to keep still
[7:37]  Camah Karillion: Even Nature follows a cycle...
[7:37]  Lysandra Goodnight chuckles
[7:37]  Corwyn Allen smiles ag Angel-san
[7:37]  Suzanne Logan listens to Camah-san
[7:37]  Corwyn Allen: at
[7:38]  Corwyn Allen: How so Camah-san
[7:38]  Corwyn Allen: Yes, precisely
[7:38]  Camah Karillion: The way water is filtered naturally. The CO2 levels of earth rise and fall.
[7:38]  Corwyn Allen: And nature, being that which is Being. is born of Non-Being.
[7:38]  Lysandra Goodnight: Hmmm I have an analogy.... when the cartwheel turns once.. is it away and and replaced with a new wheel? No... it turns again and again.. and the universe moves on...
[7:38]  Camah Karillion: All to a pricese heart beat if you wil.
[7:38]  Lysandra Goodnight: that was supposed to read away
[7:39]  Corwyn Allen: That is the philosohpy of teh Great Mandala, the Wheel of Life.
[7:39]  Lysandra Goodnight: hmmm
[7:39]  Taras Balderdash: There is no demiurge in most Chinese philosophy. So the origin of the cosmos concept is quite different from the West
[7:39]  Suzanne Logan: back to what Camah-san is saying
[7:39]  Corwyn Allen listens to Taras-san
[7:39]  Suzanne Logan: please wait a moment
[7:39]  Corwyn Allen tries to l isten to everyone.
[7:40]  Taras Balderdash: Thischapter reads like an intro to chapter 42
[7:40]  Taras Balderdash: and may have been split from it in time.
[7:40]  Suzanne Logan: Camah-san said something very interesting to me that I would like to explore a bit
[7:40]  Camah Karillion: I made my point... The earth has a beat a cycle that it lives by.
[7:40]  Suzanne Logan: about the cyclical changes.... the precise beat in time
[7:41]  Suzanne Logan: this to me is an essence of the tao... the ordered beat in time.... and when we go along with it there is harmony and when we resist it there is pain
[7:41]  Suzanne Logan: that is all I wanted to say
[7:41]  Suzanne Logan: *smiles
[7:41]  Bee Blessed smiles
[7:41]  Lysandra Goodnight: but you notice the cycle does not reverse itself.. you don't get back to the beginning by turning around and going back.. you keep going forward and come around again.
[7:41]  Camah Karillion: Cicadas is a god example
[7:41]  Camah Karillion: good*
[7:41]  angel Scarborough: That is Buddhism, suffering is caused by our resisting what is ...
[7:41]  Corwyn Allen hums a Quaker hymn
[7:42]  Corwyn Allen: The Mandala
[7:42]  Corwyn Allen: Yin and Yang
[7:42]  Suzanne Logan: tell us about the cicadas Camah-san
[7:42]  Lysandra Goodnight: they are very loud
[7:42]  Taras Balderdash: Ah, cicada! Yes, the classic symbol of eternal life!
[7:42]  Bee Blessed: yes the cicada cycle does not care a bit for what man is up to... their lifecycles just continue
[7:43]  Camah Karillion: They all hibernate for a set period of time. Then awake at the same period of time... time and time again. Their population hardly grows or shrinks.
[7:43]  Camah Karillion: Now you can take this further by studying other animals.. birds for example.
[7:44]  Camah Karillion: They move south durring the winter or north depending. And north durring the summer.
[7:44]  Lysandra Goodnight: I heard someone say once that it's foolish to be so alarmingly concerned with what "man is doing to the earth".. the earth has been through a lot worse than us... and it's kept going... we may end at some point but the planet will continue.
[7:44]  Camah Karillion: Quite true Lysandra.
[7:44]  Camah Karillion: But continuing as we are is also foolish.
[7:45]  Taras Balderdash: There is an old and someowhat disturbing CFhinese myth on the creation of man. In it the giant Pan Gu died, and his body becaume the earth
[7:45]  Bee Blessed: many snimal populations depend on these cycles... during years of the cicadas, are there not surges in growth of their predators?
[7:45]  Taras Balderdash: The trees his hair, the rivver his blood, etc.
[7:45]  Taras Balderdash: Man was ....his fles and lice. lol
[7:45]  angel Scarborough: yes, how many other animals chose to foul their own bed ... unless they are ill and cannot help it? Man does it as his form of "growing."
[7:45]  Camah Karillion: Yes and no, but it al returns to balance in the end.
[7:45]  Lysandra Goodnight: Perhaps the way we do things is natural for our species... whatever we do to ourselves and to our environment, it's still part of a much much MUCH greater cycle of existence.
[7:46]  Camah Karillion: Also a good point Lysandra.
[7:46]  Camah Karillion: And we are creatures of intellect or we like to think so.
[7:46]  Taras Balderdash: Much, byu many magnitudes. When I find something disturbing/frightening etc. I have only to think of sts....
[7:47]  Camah Karillion: Intelligence states that to destory something that is good even through inaction is bad.
[7:47]  Lysandra Goodnight: I saw a program on the Science Channel called Life after People... it showed that if mankind ceased to exist.. in only 200 years there would be no trace of our existance at all.. nautre would have reclaimed everything.
[7:47]  Taras Balderdash: their light coming to us billinos of years after they exploded, in some cases
[7:47]  Taras Balderdash: And my problems seem rather small.
[7:47]  Lysandra Goodnight: the cycle goes on.. no force in the universe can stop it
[7:47]  Taras Balderdash: I saw that show too, but it was actually about 50000 years before everything was gone
[7:48]  Bee Blessed: how long ago was that Lysandra?
[7:48]  Taras Balderdash: Hoover Dam and Mount Rushmore outlasting everything else.
[7:48]  Lysandra Goodnight: it was aired like about a month ago..
[7:48]  Lysandra Goodnight: might have been the History Channel
[7:48]  Suzanne Logan looks at the time... we have time for one more verse I think...shall we try it?
[7:48]  Bee Blessed: I wonder, with genetic manipulation, if the same will be true in another couple of decades
[7:48]  Corwyn Allen: Well I think 200 years is an overestimate.
[7:49]  Taras Balderdash: The key to the Dao, not the Dao of Laozi, but the gneral Dao, is to ride the changes
[7:49]  Taras Balderdash: *general
[7:49]  Corwyn Allen: We are still digiing up remains of our ancestros from 3000 years ago.
[7:49]  Lysandra Goodnight: but regardless it does prove the point that the cycle of life continues.. it is man's arrogance to assume that he is at the center of the cycle of life.. we're just a small point on the wheel...
[7:49]  Bee Blessed smiles at Suzanne's attempt to keep us on track...
[7:49]  Taras Balderdash: What does everone think of covering two chapers per session instead of three?
[7:49]  Lysandra Goodnight: Hai.. please continue
[7:50]  Corwyn Allen: As much as we talk that might be a good Idea Okasa
[7:50]  angel Scarborough: my own version of that, Taras, when something starts to bother me is to ask myself "will this matter to anyone in a hundred years?" I generally find that quickly puts things in proper perspective for me, shows me I was in danger of devoting energy to something that in reality is very trivial in the overall scheme of things
[7:50]  Taras Balderdash: It seems to me that we get a bit rushed at three.
[7:50]  Suzanne Logan pokes Taras... you know I originally had planned to cover 5 in one sitting
[7:50]  angel Scarborough: youch, Suzanne
[7:50]  Corwyn Allen: Well, this is supposed to be a "discussion" group after all.
[7:50]  angel Scarborough: I don't think we have ever done more than three.
[7:50]  Suzanne Logan: we do get rushed... I can slow it down
[7:50]  Camah Karillion: Life can be stopped... but it won't be by our hand alone... Our own life line is tied to earth and if we continue to miss with earth it will destory us some how. So that it will return to balance or a wholeness the last verse spoke of this plainly, this verse is telling you that we are in a cycle if we like it or not we are a part of it.
[7:50]  Lysandra Goodnight: well you know how it is when you get a group of philosophers together..... hehehhe
[7:51]  angel Scarborough agrees with Corwyn
[7:51]  Suzanne Logan: good point Camah-san
[7:51]  Corwyn Allen: Yes, Camah-san, to a point.
[7:51]  Taras Balderdash: After all, will anyone care in 100 years if we covered, three, five or two chapters? *Looks at Suza-san, ducks.
[7:51]  Bee Blessed: yes well summarized, Camah
[7:51]  Suzanne Logan grabs tea and relaxes to the friendly banter
[7:52]  Corwyn Allen: To say the earth will destroy us though is to anthropomorohpize the planet.
[7:52]  Tea cup Tomesode whispers: Ah! Steaming Green Tea!
[7:52]  Camah Karillion: anthro what?
[7:52]  Suzanne Logan: *laughs.....
[7:52]  Suzanne Logan: too many syllables!
[7:52]  Corwyn Allen grins
[7:52]  Suzanne Logan: for me too!!
[7:52]  Lysandra Goodnight: to put human qualities on something that is not human
[7:52]  Camah Karillion: Yes I know
[7:52]  Corwyn Allen: Anthropomorphize
[7:52]  angel Scarborough smiles at Taras use of her example
[7:52]  Taras Balderdash: The disturbing thing for us is the lack of control. We think the earth somehow can be controlled. Not by us, not yet.
[7:52]  Corwyn Allen: Misspelled
[7:52]  Camah Karillion: And I would like to think that he earth is a living thing.
[7:53]  Camah Karillion: the*
[7:53]  Corwyn Allen: True Taras
[7:53]  Taras Balderdash: One volcano can have the effect of a hundred years of human activity in the course of a weekend.
[7:53]  Corwyn Allen: It is a living thing indeed. No argument.
[7:53]  Suzanne Logan: well... it is filled with living things...
[7:53]  Bee Blessed: Gaia
[7:53]  Corwyn Allen: But is it sentient?
[7:53]  Corwyn Allen: A thinking being?
[7:53]  Camah Karillion: At it's core is it's heart...
[7:53]  Suzanne Logan: the American Indians would say yes
[7:53]  Corwyn Allen: That can willfully destroy?
[7:54]  Corwyn Allen: The American indians were not as wholly in tune with the earth as we would believe.
[7:54]  Lysandra Goodnight: "Destroy" is the wrong word.... we will pass as all things do and become the fodder to fuel the next cycle..
[7:54]  Bee Blessed: not willfully but to allow one's choices to accomplish one's own destruction perhaps?
[7:54]  Corwyn Allen: The burned the great plains in order to create larger herds of buffalo
[7:54]  Taras Balderdash: The inanimate objects of the world are definitely sentient. Expecially cords and other snake like things, which tangle instantly when placed together.
[7:54]  Suzanne Logan: and many primitive religions....hence sacrificial ceremonies
[7:54]  Taras Balderdash: And tick me off
[7:54]  Camah Karillion: Well I speak playing with out the earth's core all on earth would die.
[7:54]  Suzanne Logan: and socks in my dryer
[7:54]  Camah Karillion: plainly
[7:54]  Taras Balderdash: *especially
[7:54]  Corwyn Allen laughes at Taras' comments
[7:55]  Corwyn Allen: Without air we would die
[7:55]  Corwyn Allen: Without water we would die
[7:55]  Camah Karillion: Has any heard of the dynamo effect?
[7:55]  Corwyn Allen: Without other anilmals or vegetation we would die.
[7:55]  Corwyn Allen: It is all one
[7:55]  Suzanne Logan: what is the dynamo effect?
[7:55]  Corwyn Allen: But the air, fire, water, earth
[7:55]  Corwyn Allen: are they truly possessed of a will to destroy us if we get out of hand?
[7:56]  Taras Balderdash: And without lawyers and daytime TV we would live, and live BETTER!
[7:56]  Corwyn Allen: Or are we ultimately responsible for our own destruction?
[7:56]  Lysandra Goodnight: if mankind is destroyed it will more than likely be by our own hand.
[7:56]  Taras Balderdash: Humanity is all about adaptation
[7:56]  Corwyn Allen surrenders to Taras' attempts to ground this lofty conversation
[7:56]  Bee Blessed: dynamo effect?
[7:56]  angel Scarborough: Man sees himself as the pinnacle of evolution, as full of wisdom. For me, wisdom is not just having knowledge but using that knowledge wisely rather than only for personal gain despite the cost to others / our environment.
[7:56]  Taras Balderdash: We lived through ice ages
[7:56]  Taras Balderdash: And may be starting another
[7:57]  Taras Balderdash: Before we had to feed a few thousand crude people in the cold and deserts
[7:57]  Taras Balderdash: now we have 6 billion, and better technology.
[7:57]  Camah Karillion: It is a way of producing magnetic fields, earth has one a rather large one and it shields all of earth in a protective barrier. Without it we would be blased with solar rays, radiation, heat...
[7:57]  Lysandra Goodnight: humanity is arrogant to think that it possesses a special seat in the great cosmic scheme of things.. we're just another form of insect crawling on the face of the planet.. we had a birth.. we have a life.. we will have a death and the next thing will come along to replace us.. it's all another turning of the wheel
[7:57]  Camah Karillion: blasted*
[7:57]  Taras Balderdash: As long as we can dup the lawyers before the glaciers arrive, we'll make it.
[7:57]  Lysandra Goodnight: hehehehe
[7:57]  Corwyn Allen: But that magnetic field fluctuates, and has done so in recent history
[7:57]  Lysandra Goodnight: true, Taras san
[7:57]  Camah Karillion: Yes.
[7:57]  Corwyn Allen: The polse reverse
[7:58]  Corwyn Allen: It doens't will itself to do that
[7:58]  Corwyn Allen: We don't do that.
[7:58]  Corwyn Allen: It just is.
[7:58]  Corwyn Allen: Physics
[7:58]  Camah Karillion: This is due to its motlton core.
[7:58]  Taras Balderdash: Yes, the pole reversal seems imminent
[7:58]  Taras Balderdash: which could also be bad news.
[7:58]  Camah Karillion: The Aztecs ploted those changes believe it or not.
[7:58]  Corwyn Allen: There is also magnetic fluctuation occuring in sunspots and this is also cyclic
[7:58]  Taras Balderdash: I'm buying full body sunglasses for the event.
[7:59]  angel Scarborough smiles at Tara understatement "bad news"
[7:59]  Taras Balderdash: Welll, a pole reversal doesn't kill everything
[7:59]  Corwyn Allen: Well see that's the thing. Is it bad news? Or will we adapt?
[7:59]  Taras Balderdash: But it does increase cancer rates a lot
[7:59]  Corwyn Allen: Or will we even be affected?
[8:00]  Bee Blessed does not understand "pole reversals"
[8:00]  angel Scarborough: if I understand pole reversals, we will not be here to adapt
[8:00]  Lysandra Goodnight smiles and chucles softly.... "I doubt we are getting to 41 today hehehe"
[8:00]  Camah Karillion: We can deflect a metor we are at that point... but we have noway to stop solar rays.. yet.
[8:00]  angel Scarborough: not from what I have read
[8:00]  Suzanne Logan looks at her watch... It is my difficult duty to keep us on time... and you all have to admit you could go on alllllllll day *gazes lovingly around the table
[8:00]  Camah Karillion: Unless you count suntan lotion.
[8:00]  Corwyn Allen: The north and south magnetic poles can reverse as the magnetic polarity of the earth changes
[8:00]  Taras Balderdash: Quite right, the magnietic poles switch, not the physical ones
[8:01]  Corwyn Allen: RIght
[8:01]  Suzanne Logan sets her empty teacup on the table for the shikomi to clean up...
[8:01]  Corwyn Allen: And all this relates in the end to Tao.
[8:01]  Taras Balderdash: So it's an event that removes the protective layer that Kamah was talking about
[8:01]  Corwyn Allen: It will continue as will these classes
[8:01]  Lysandra Goodnight: this was a fun one hehehe
[8:01]  Bee Blessed: very interesting
[8:01]  Suzanne Logan smiles... please feel free to continue your discussion.. I must away to my office

Verses 36-38

January 11, 2009

Attendees: Bee, Angel, Taras, Corwyn, Suzanne

[7:11]  Suzanne Logan: shall we begin?
Thirty Six - Too Much Invites Disaster
That which shrinks Must first expand.
That which fails Must first be strong.
That which is cast down Must first be raised.
Before Receiving There must be giving.
This is called perception of the nature of things.
Soft and weak overcome hard and strong.
Fish cannot leave deep waters,
And a country's weapons should not be displayed.
If you want to shrink something,
you must first allow it to expand.
If you want to get rid of something,
you must first allow it to flourish.
If you want to take something,
you must first allow it to be given.
This is called the subtle perception
of the way things are.
The soft overcomes the hard.
The slow overcomes the fast.
Let your workings remain a mystery.
Just show people the results.
It is the way of the Tao,
that things which expand might also shrink;
that he who is strong, will at some time be weak,
that he who is raised will then be cast down,
and that all men have a need to give,
and also have a need to receive.
The biggest fish stay deep in the pond,
and a country's best weapons
should be kept locked away.
That which is soft and supple,
may overcome the hard and strong.
[7:14]  Corwyn Allen: Oh that worked ever so much better than cutting and pasting into IM. Well done Okasan.
[7:14]  Suzanne Logan starts to everything turn turn turn ...there is a season turn turn turn ...and a time to every purpose under heaven
[7:15]  Bee Blessed smiles, and finds herself humming along
[7:15]  Corwyn Allen smiles
[7:15]  Suzanne Logan: domo Corwyn... it is a wonderful tool someone gifted to me
[7:15]  Corwyn Allen checks to see if Okasan is wearing bell bottomed jeans
[7:15]  Suzanne Logan throws a pillow at Corwyn
[7:15]  Corwyn Allen grins and ducks
[7:16]  Bee Blessed: having read the verse, wonders why the fish and weapons... humming "3 of these things belong together"
[7:16]  Corwyn Allen: Sorry for the digression folks. A little inside joke with Okasan
[7:16]  Suzanne Logan: *laughs....Sesame Street
[7:16]  Taras Balderdash: Why is it, do you think, that Lao Zi starts by speaking of the expanding and contracting cycle of all things, but then speaks only of the Yin side, of soft overcoming hard?
[7:16]  Corwyn Allen: It is not so much about fish or weapons, but about keeping the best or biggest things hidden.
[7:16]  Suzanne Logan: or is it hard becoming soft
[7:16]  Corwyn Allen: Fish in deep water. Big weapons locked away and not shown. That is a very godd question Taras-san. Perhaps is has to do with his last lines.
[7:17]  Taras Balderdash: You ae most kind.
[7:17]  Bee Blessed simply does not see that concept, a valid one, blending with the rest of the verse... the 2nd version flowed better for me
[7:17]  Corwyn Allen: Hiding something away would be soft overcoming hard As would big fish seeking deep water
Now a salmon swimming up stream to spawn would be the opposite, hard overcoming soft
[7:18]  Bee Blessed: ah thank you Corwyn, that helps
[7:18]  Suzanne Logan: He says....soft and weak overcomes hard and strong. like water wearing away at the rocks
[7:18]  angel Scarborough thinks of the Buddha's "Middle Way" as she reads this. He had to try both extremes first in his life before he could find the balance where he could live in the world while letting the suffering of the world flow around him. He learned to be hard (his ascetic time), soft (his wealth time) and then find his balance.
[7:18]  Corwyn Allen: Yes. *nods at Angel
[7:19]  Suzanne Logan: good point Angel
[7:19]  angel Scarborough: Thank you, Suzanne
[7:19]  Bee Blessed smiles at her well read sister
[7:19]  Suzanne Logan: lets go on to the next one many of these tie together ... shall we?
[7:20]  Taras Balderdash: Yes, but rocks grind rocks as well. And break cocoanuts, etc. In toher words, there are two sides to the coin...
[7:20]  angel Scarborough: yes, please, Suzanne
[7:20]  Suzanne Logan: that is true Taras...
[7:20]  Taras Balderdash: So Lao Zi obviously has an agenda here.
[7:20]  angel Scarborough whispers to her sister "more and more of my studies are very much along the path of Buddhism in many ways"
[7:20]  Suzanne Logan: two hard heads will eventually give both a headache
[7:20]  angel Scarborough chuckles at Suzanne
[7:20]  Corwyn Allen smiles
[7:20]  Taras Balderdash: Perhaps a counterbalance to the violence and agression of his time.  :)*pictures the sound of the two heads meeting, cocoanut like.
[7:21]  Corwyn Allen: It always seems to be the way doesn't it? Ghandi tried that as well.
[7:21]  Bee Blessed laughs happily , picturing bighorn sheep
[7:21]  Suzanne Logan: do you think this was a little admonision on his part, Taras?
[7:21]  angel Scarborough: um, yes, Corwyn, this is "The Way" *grins*
[7:21]  Corwyn Allen: Well, it is "a" way.
[7:21]  Suzanne Logan laughs *wincing* a bit
[7:22]  Taras Balderdash: Lao Zi's time was particularly violent. The small states constantly conquering one another. So this may indeed be an admonition
[7:22]  angel Scarborough: True, Corywn. As I have said, I find the Way of the Tao, fits well with my other studies. So for me, it is "one way."
[7:22]  Corwyn Allen: Yes, this was the time of the Hundred Kingdoms wasn't it?
[7:22]  Taras Balderdash: Or a rebuke
[7:22]  Corwyn Allen: Or was it called Warring States period? I forget now.
[7:23]  Taras Balderdash: It was the duty of the wise counsel to spaek truth to the king, correcting excesses.  Yes, though I think that was the period right after Lao Zi and Kong Zi
[7:23]  Corwyn Allen: Was Lao Zi before or after Qin, the kirst Emperor?
[7:23]  Taras Balderdash: They lived in the Spring and Autumn period, but the Warring states form a part of that.
[7:24]  angel Scarborough thinks about the fact that in some courts, it is the role of the jester/fool to bring wise counsel to the King.
[7:24]  Taras Balderdash: He was some two hundred years before the Qin unification
[7:24]  Bee Blessed sees much to learn
[7:24]  Corwyn Allen: Ah, thank you Taras san. It's nice to put that into perxpective.
[7:24]  Suzanne Logan: helps to put it in context of the historical period
[7:25]  Suzanne Logan: now for verse 42
[7:25]  -:
[7:25]  Corwyn Allen: So yes, I can see that this could be an admonition or a warning to the warring states to take the soft way to overcome.
[7:25]  Taras Balderdash: Yes, the fool was another figure, the madman who could speak with impunity, but in ancient China the state philosopher was also tasked with this.
[7:25]  Suzanne Logan: oops I mean 37
[7:25]  Taras Balderdash: At the risk of his life, very often. Anyway, I ramble on.
[7:26]  Suzanne Logan: oh...please let me know when the group is ready
[7:26]  Corwyn Allen shuts up and waits for Okasan
[7:27]  Suzanne Logan pours some tea for Taras and hands him the cup after showing him the lovely designs on the pottery
[7:27]  Taras Balderdash: *Taras admires the wonderful cup and accepts it.
[7:27]  Suzanne Logan: would anyone else like some tea?
[7:27]  Corwyn Allen: Domo, I am fine Okasan.
[7:28]  Suzanne Logan smiles and continues...
[7:28]  -: Thirty Seven: The Primal Simplicity
[7:28]  Bee Blessed smiles, thank you suzanne, I can "help myself" while you continue
Tao abides in non-action,
 Yet nothing is left undone.
If kings and lords observed this,
The ten thousand things would develop naturally.
I they still desired to act,
They would return to the simplicity of formless substance.
Without form there is no desire.
Without desire there is tranquility,
And in this way all things would be at peace.
The Tao never does anything,
yet through it all things are done.
If powerful men and women
could venter themselves in it,
the whole world would be transformed
by itself, in its natural rhythms.
People would be content
with their simple, everyday lives,
in harmony, and free of desire.
When there is no desire,
all things are at peace.
The way of nature is not contrived,
yet nothing which is required
is left undone.
Observing nature, the wise leader knows this,
and replaces desire with dispassion,
thus saving that energy, otherwise spent,
which has not been wasted away.
The wise leader knows
his actions must be
without the use of forced energy.
He knows that more
is still required,
for he also knows
that he must act
without deliberate intent,
of having no intention.
To act without contrived intent
is to act without contriving,
and is the way of nature,
and so is the way of the Tao.

[7:30]  Corwyn Allen: Again we see Lai Zi recommending action through non-action. The soft overcoming the hard.
[7:30]  Suzanne Logan: this one reminds me of a little church song .....we used to sing for the children....
[7:31]  Corwyn Allen: Gladly, The Crosseyed Bear?
[7:31]  Suzanne Logan: have patience have patience don't be in such a hurry...
[7:31]  Corwyn Allen grins and ducks
[7:31]  Suzanne Logan growls low under her breath...and wonders why she didn't set out a whole pile of pillows at the ready
[7:32]  Bee Blessed: dont worry..... be happy.....(humming again)
[7:32]  Taras Balderdash: Here Lao Zi echoes an ancient approach ot reality. The emperor, merely by facing the south and being attired in the appropriate way for the season, causes harmony.
[7:32]  Suzanne Logan: or chants.....from the Wizard of Oz......all in good time, my pretty....all in good time
[7:32]  Bee Blessed smiles as she really did read "Tea cup Tomesode whispers: Ah! Steaming Green Tea!" looking for pearsl of wisdom and apologises for the interruption of serious study
[7:33]  Suzanne Logan: is more about the"letting go" and letting things come along as they naturally will
[7:33]  Taras Balderdash: The connection beteen the microcosm of the imperial activities and the macrocosm of the world is a tradition going back at least toe the Classic of History. Which was written some500 years before Lao Zi, based on older documents
[7:34]  Corwyn Allen: Yes, like the adage that if you sit in one spot long enough the whole world will come to you.
[7:34]  Bee Blessed: angel and I were discussing how so much energy can be wasted... that letting go can be much more efficient than trying to "recycle" that energy
[7:34]  Corwyn Allen: Action through non-action.
[7:34]  Suzanne Logan: what do you think of the references to the natural courses of nature as a primer for wise leadership?
[7:34]  Taras Balderdash: It forms an interesting contract with the next chapter, which utterly rejects that very tradition.
[7:35]  Suzanne Logan: ah.. shall we discuss both verses together?
[7:35]  Bee Blessed's studies lie along the path of mirroring nature
[7:35]  Taras Balderdash: Well, it works fine. As long as you want live as a cross-eyed bear in the woods.
[7:35]  Corwyn Allen grins at Taras
[7:36]  Suzanne Logan smiles... well as we look at the course of nature against time we see patterns emerge....
[7:36]  Corwyn Allen: I think the concept is not so much to live in the woods, as it is to not try to change nature.
[7:36]  Suzanne Logan: no one has to work on these patterns... they just..*are*
[7:36]  Corwyn Allen nods
[7:36]  Suzanne Logan: and as they *are*... so are they accomplished a true leader - by nature- is a certain way as well
[7:37]  Taras Balderdash: Yes, Suza-san, exactly. There is a concept of 'pattern' in Chinese that is key
[7:37]  Suzanne Logan nods.. there is a consistency in change
[7:37]  Taras Balderdash: The template is there, though sometimes invisible, and we follow its contours.
[7:37]  Suzanne Logan nods.. hai
[7:37]  Corwyn Allen: Very like a Mandelbrot set
[7:37]  Corwyn Allen: Order in chaos
[7:37]  Taras Balderdash: And change is the only constant.
[7:38]  Bee Blessed: what is that Corwyn?
[7:38]  Corwyn Allen: Hai. Ah, sorry Bee. Fractal mathematics. Chaos theory. I can explain in more detail another time.
Or you can google it id you like. It's quite intensive. Yes simple
[7:39]  Taras Balderdash: The simple becomes the complex would express the basic idea of fractals, yes?
[7:39]  Bee Blessed: smiles, thank you, there is onein RL who is saying he has played with that set, and has written a program to make one... so I can ask him
[7:39]  angel Scarborough suspects that our housemate would be able to explain it easily
[7:39]  Suzanne Logan: google Leadership and the New Science by Margaret Wheatley
[7:39]  angel Scarborough smiles at her sister
[7:39]  Corwyn Allen: Yes, as would the reverse Taras.
[7:39]  Suzanne Logan: she pulls in quantum physics to her discussion...but we digress....
[7:40]  Bee Blessed giggles behind her hand and reaches for some of that stimulating tea!
[7:40]  Suzanne Logan: I would like to get to 38...
[7:40]  Corwyn Allen looks at clock and agrees to shut up again.
Thirty Eight: Distinguishing the Highest from the Lowest Morality
A truly good man is aware of his goodness,
And is therefore good.
A foolish man tries to be good,
And is therefore not good.
A truly good man does nothing,
Yet leaves nothing undone.
A foolish man is always doing,
Yet much remains to be done.
When a truly kind man does something, he leaves nothing undone.
When a just man does something, he leaves a great deal to be done.
When a disciplinarian does something and no one responds,
He rolls up his sleeves in an attempt to enforce order.
Therefore when Tao is lost, there is goodness.
When goodness is lost, there is kindness.
When kindness is lost, there is justice.
When justice is lost, there is ritual.
Now ritual is the husk of faith and loyalty, the beginnings of confusion.
Knowledge of the future is only a flowery trapping of Tao.
It is the beginning of folly.
Therefore the truly great man dwells on what is real and not what is on the surface.
On the fruit and not the flower.
Therefore accept the one and reject the other.
The Master doesn't try to be powerful;
thus he is truly powerful.
The ordinary man keeps reaching for power;
thus he never has enough.
The Master does nothing,
yet he leaves nothing undone.
The ordinary man is always doing things,
yet many more are left to be done.
The kind man does something,
yet something remains undone.
The just man does something,
and leaves many things to be done

The moral man does something,
and when no one responds
he rolls up his sleeves and uses force.
When the Tao is lost, there is goodness.
 When goodness is lost, there is morality.
When morality is lost, there is ritual.
Ritual is the husk of true faith,
the beginning of chaos.
Therefore the Master concerns himself
with the depths and not the surface,
with the fruit and not the flower.
He has no will of his own.
He dwells in reality,
and lets all illusions go
A truly good man is unaware
of the good deeds he performs.
Conversely, a foolish man must try
continuously to be good.
A good man seems to do little or nought,
yet he leaves nothing undone.
A foolish man must always strive,
whilst leaving much undone.
The man who is truly wise and kind
leaves nothing to be done,
but he who only acts
according to his nation's law
leaves many things undone.
A disciplinarian wanting something done
rolls up his sleeves,
enforcing it with violence.
It may be that goodness still remains,
even when the natural way is lost,
and that kindness still exists
when goodness is forgotten.
It may be that justice still remains
when the people are no longer kind,
and when this is lost, that ritual still remains.
However, ritual may be performed
only as an act of faith,
and may be the beginning of confusion,
for even divination and the such
are but the flowery trappings of the Tao,
and are the beginning of great folly.
He who is truly great
does not upon the surface dwell,
but on what lies beneath.
It is said that the fruit is his concern,
rather than the flower.
Each must decide what it might be he seeks,
the flowery trapping,
which comes to summer fullness first,
or the fruit which is beneath.
[7:44]  Suzanne Logan: ooh I like C best
[7:45]  Taras Balderdash: This verse really made me think, and I wrote a bit about it....
[7:45]  Bee Blessed: so this is saying that ritual is a "symptom" of things sliding into chaos?
[7:45]  Taras Balderdash: To the modern, Western eye, this text may seem like a new twist on how to view social niceties and conventions. But when viewed in the social context of its time, this chapter is a bombshell.
[7:45]  angel Scarborough: Part of this reminds me of verses 18 and 19
[7:45]  Taras Balderdash: The text uses symmetrical texts, a favorite technique of Chinese authors through the centuries. But the symmetry here is a set of steps running down from the exalted to the debased. And in the debased spot, the very bottom of the totem pole, is 'Li', ceremony or rites. This is a bombshell. since the rites were the very foundation of society. This chapter rejects Chinese conventions to their core. It would likely evoke a visceral reaction of rejection by the Confucianists of that time (that is, not strictly followers of Confucius, but all who followed the Way of the Sages. To reject the Rites is to reject the Ancestors. To reject the Ancestors is to reject the Sages. To reject the Sages is to spit in the eye of God. So this is not tame stuff we have here; not just pretty words and soft sentiments, but a declaration of war against Chinese society.
[7:46]  angel Scarborough: [7:08] Suzanne Logan: When the Great Integrity was abandoned, humanity and justice appeared.
[7:08] Suzanne Logan: When knowledge and teachers appeared, hypocrisy was their inevitable accompaniment. When family relationships lost their harmony, filial piety and parental affection were suddenly birthed.
[7:46]  angel Scarborough: is from 18
[7:46]  Corwyn Allen: Thank you Taras. That verse confused me too. It is good to put that into istorical contxt once again.
[7:47]  Suzanne Logan: it bites too for Western religions
[7:47]  Bee Blessed thanks Taras for the historical context
[7:47]  Corwyn Allen: And not only western religions, but western socitey. We are a society of ritual.
[7:47]  Suzanne Logan: many of them rely strongly on ritual
[7:47]  Bee Blessed was thinking of the catholic rituals...
[7:47]  Corwyn Allen: Yes. Bee.
[7:48]  Taras Balderdash: It's a declaration of a counterculture. Lao Zi was the ultimate protohippie
[7:48]  Corwyn Allen: A friend of mine converted to Catholicism because she liked the ritual.
[7:48]  Suzanne Logan: cool!
[7:48]  Corwyn Allen: Groovy
[7:48]  angel Scarborough: I guess this did not bother me at all as so much of my reading now is often tied into Buddhism and so much of the Tao, as we have discussed before, works well with Buddhism. (Thanks Taras for explaining to her why that is)
[7:48]  Taras Balderdash: :)
[7:48]  Suzanne Logan: well I can see how this would have been a bombshell
[7:48]  Corwyn Allen smacks typo deamon
[7:49]  Suzanne Logan: now dig a little into his reasoning
[7:49]  Suzanne Logan: WHY did he talk about ritual as being the beginning of confusion?
[7:49]  Corwyn Allen: I think...
[7:49]  Taras Balderdash: Chinese society made its choice. The Qin unification was based in Leglism. The foundation of Leglism is the Rites.
[7:49]  Corwyn Allen: because the ritrual is a solid thing one can touch And nature not so much
[7:50]  Taras Balderdash: Xun Zi put them above all other elements fo the classical education.
[7:50]  Corwyn Allen: Letting go, let ig nature run its course is not always so easy to the human mind
[7:50]  Suzanne Logan: right...and he talks of flowery trappings
[7:50]  Taras Balderdash: One might say, however, that Lao Zi here condemns not the Rites of love for one another that prop up human relations....
[7:50]  angel Scarborough: Ritual can so easily obscure the truth it was originally founded on. People keep the ritual, thinking it is the core, forgetting that it was orginally only meant as a symbol. The lessons behind the ritual can easily be lost or distorted over time.
[7:50]  Suzanne Logan: ritual can become so rote...that it loses meaning
[7:50]  Taras Balderdash: but the empty rituals that lack sincerity.
[7:51]  Suzanne Logan: exactly!
[7:51]  Corwyn Allen: Yes.
[7:51]  Suzanne Logan: well said
[7:51]  Bee Blessed: yes!
[7:51]  Corwyn Allen: Like long flowery speeches amid drums adn music
[7:51]  Taras Balderdash: Buut his followers, along with those of Mo Zi, rejected precisely the Rites of society, good or bad
[7:52]  Corwyn Allen: versus just sitting in a quiet spot to say ones vows, smiles at Suzanne
[7:52]  Suzanne Logan: *smiles.. hai simplicity
[7:52]  Taras Balderdash: And eventually Daoism became associated with precisely the type of empty chanting and superstition that this verse would seem to condemn.
[7:52]  Corwyn Allen: Tis the gift to be simple
[7:52]  Bee Blessed: and yet the drums and music were ways of helping along those who needed a boost... perhaps to distract them from their ego
[7:52]  angel Scarborough: I love that song, Corwyn
[7:52]  Bee Blessed: tis the gift to be free
[7:53]  Taras Balderdash: In short, people, no matter how much you paint them or dress them up, are people.
[7:53]  Corwyn Allen: Yes, Bee, but it also distracted them from the purpose behind teh ritual.
[7:53]  Bee Blessed: tis a gift to to end up where we ought to be
[7:53]  Corwyn Allen: Indeed Taras.
[7:53]  Taras Balderdash: The drums and dancing were VERY important to the ancients
[7:53]  Bee Blessed: and when we come around it will be just right, will be in the valley of love and delight (os something like)
[7:54]  Taras Balderdash: It was held by many, including Kong Zi himself, that degenerate music made for a degenerate society
[7:54]  Suzanne Logan listens to Bee's soft and enchanting oice as she sings..
[7:54]  Corwyn Allen: SO Taras, would you say....That the ancients who initiated the rituals...Were trying to unify the people....Whom the though incapable of self unification? And that Loa Zi and the others....Tried to show that letting nature take its course....Was really the better way towards unification....with the entire universe?
[7:55]  angel Scarborough: I think what we are getting into know is also the overlap between church and state. The whole "religion as the opiate of the masses" thing because if you give the "masses" something that they can assimilate into their everyday life without requiring them to spend a lot of time on the philosophy behind it, you keep them feeling drawn to the religion the state choses and thus controllable. It is easier for many to identify with drums and chanting or other rituals than to spend years studying.
[7:55]  Corwyn Allen: Yes, Control
[7:55]  Taras Balderdash: A very good question, Corwyn, with about a 1200 page answer
[7:55]  Corwyn Allen: LOL
[7:56]  Corwyn Allen: Ok, Taras, I see we need to sit down fo a day and just talk
[7:56]  angel Scarborough: The Tao is for the leaders though, so it would be written for a different audience. For ones you would not want to get lost in the ritual but to understand what is behind it.
[7:56]  Taras Balderdash: But in brief, I would say that it is difficult to answer in brief because of the 2500 years that separate us from the authors
[7:56]  Corwyn Allen nods
[7:56]  Bee Blessed nods as Sis wrote something else she was thinking... how ritual was used to control more than to guide in many instances
[7:56]  Taras Balderdash: Their idea of nature and ours, their concept of 'doing nothing', for instance...
[7:56]  Suzanne Logan: Good points ANgel...
[7:56]  Taras Balderdash: are very different than ours.
[7:56]  Bee Blessed: which brings us back to the first verse I believe
[7:57]  Corwyn Allen: Angel, it is how the Romans handled those tribes they conquered. If they couldn't do it militarily they went for the religion and the leaders of it
[7:57]  Suzanne Logan looks to the group....
[7:57]  Corwyn Allen: HEnce th ebirth of the Holy ROman Empire and the Catholic CHurch
[7:57]  Suzanne Logan: I am afraid I must be the time keeper again..

Verse 33 -35


Attendees: Ozzy Wozniak, Bee Blessed, Angel Scarborough, Corwyn Allen, Suzanne Logan

[7:17]  Suzanne Logan: verse 33 may be summarized as "who are you

Knowing others is wisdom;
Knowing the self is enlightenment.
Mastering others requires force;
Mastering the self needs strength.

He who knows he has enough is rich.
Perseverance is a sign of will power.
He who stays where he is endures.
To die but not to perish is the be eternally present.
Knowing others is intelligence;
knowing yourself is true wisdom.
Mastering others is strength;
mastering yourself is true power.

If you realize that you have enough,
you are truly rich.
If you stay in the center
and embrace death with your whole heart,
you will endure forever.
Knowledge frequently results
from knowing others,
but the man who is awakened,
has seen the uncarved block.
Others might be mastered by force,
but to master one's self
requires the Tao.
He who has many material things,
may be described as rich,
but he who knows he has enough,
and is at one with the Tao,
might have enough of material things,
and have self-being as well.
Will-power may bring perseverance;
but to have tranquility is to endure,
being protected for all his days.
He whose ideas remain in the world,
is present for all time.

[7:19]  Suzanne Logan: I will give you a few moments to review those. I think the first strange to me, Look at the line that says....Mastering others requires force that incongruent to what we have seen in the Tao so far?
[7:21]  Ozzy Wozniak: yes it sounded strange to mee at the beggining. the force..tao is not force
[7:21]  Corwyn Allen: No, and I think that's the point.
[7:21]  Suzanne Logan: right.... but in the next verse it says Mastering others is strength
[7:22]  Corwyn Allen: One should not try to master others. You force them if you do and that's not what Tao is about.
[7:22]  Suzanne Logan: I agree Corwyn I think he is using that as a contrast again to the point about mastering one's self
[7:22]  Corwyn Allen: One should lead others. And that requires mastery of one's self, whiche requires strength.
[7:22]  Bee Blessed: that is I think the point, that it takes that which is not Tao to master others, so it is not recommended. and strength is better than force, tho they may be similar in some contexts, this refers to self mastery as a type of strength that is welcome
[7:24]  Suzanne Logan: yes Bee... and I think that also moves us into the second part of He who knows he has enough is rich...
[7:24]  Corwyn Allen nods
[7:25]  Suzanne Logan: that quiet understanding and self -work...that we are all doing
[7:25]  Bee Blessed: non material wealth... I was just reading an article in the news about that
[7:25]  Suzanne Logan: oh? tell us about that
[7:26]  Bee Blessed: well, actually it was about groups of people banding together and trying to reuse things instead of purchasing new things. The commentary was interesting, as some saw the production of material things as the only source of "jobs"and we were starting a family discussion about ways to be productive without making new "stuff". The "labor intense" manufacturing of neccessities that is so much more rewarding,a s you have infused your spirit into the making of things. But this digresses from the lesson
[7:28]  Corwyn Allen: Yes
[7:28]  Suzanne Logan: that is particularly true of artistic expression
[7:28]  Ozzy Wozniak: very interesting point bee
[7:28]  Corwyn Allen: That yes was for your previous remark, not the digression one.
[7:28]  Suzanne Logan: lets go to the next verse as it elaborates on this one
[7:28]  Bee Blessed: oh may I one more point? about this verse?
[7:28]  Suzanne Logan: yes of course *smiles
[7:28]  Corwyn Allen listens
[7:29]  Bee Blessed: whereas the 3rd version is a bit wordy overall, I think it caught the thought He whose ideas remain in the world, is present for all time.
[7:29]  Suzanne Logan: well yes
[7:29]  Bee Blessed: I liked that wording
[7:29]  Bee Blessed: ..... finished (smiling)
[7:30]  Corwyn Allen smiles
[7:30]  Corwyn Allen: Okasan is replacing the batteries in her keyboard. She'll be right back.
[7:31]  Bee Blessed: likely she thought I would take longer... (smiles)
[7:31]  Corwyn Allen smiles
[7:31]  Corwyn Allen: She got a new keyboard for Christmas and used the batteries that were included I think, and they must have been old.
[7:31]  Bee Blessed: ah that does happen
[7:31]  Corwyn Allen: Which is why batteries are so seldom included.
[7:32]  Suzanne Logan: testing testing 1 2 3 4, yes !!!
[7:32]  Corwyn Allen: Ah, and here she is.
[7:32]  Suzanne Logan: 34 can be summarized as Humility and Greatness
The great Tao flows everywhere, both to the left and to the right.
The ten thousand things depend upon it; it hold nothing back.
It fulfills its purpose silently and makes no claim.
It nourishes the ten thousand things,
And yet is not their lord.
It has no aim; it is very small.

The ten thousand things re turn to it,
Yet it is no their lord.
It is very great.

It does not sow greatness,
and is therefore truly great.
The great Tao flows everywhere.
All things are born from it,
yet it doesn't create them.
It pours itself into its work,
yet it makes no claim.
It nourishes infinite worlds,
yet it doesn't hold on to them.
Since it is merged with all things
and hidden in their hearts,
it can be called humble.
Since all things vanish into it
and it alone endures,
it can be called great.
It isn't aware of its greatness;
thus it is truly great.
All things may act, without exclusion,
according to the natural way,
which fulfills its purpose silently,
and with no claim.
Being an aspect of natural order,
it is not the ruler of any thing,
but remains the source of their nourishment.
It cannot be seen; it has no intention,
but all natural things rely on its presence.
When all things return to it,
it does not enslave them,
so unmanifested, its greatness prevails.
Modelling himself upon the Tao,
he who is wise, does not contrive,
but is content with what he achieves.

[7:34]  Suzanne Logan: did we talk about the reference to the 10,000 things?
[7:35]  Bee Blessed does not recall that, however she did join after several classes....
[7:36]  Suzanne Logan: basically at the time this was written, it was thought that all the things in the universe could be numbered. So the idea of the 10,000 things...really means..."all things". To me the B one is easier on my eyes. But, lets talk about this from a person perspective.... as the Tao person. So B covers it I think in that is says all things as opposed to 10,000 things, So all things are born from the Tao but not created from it. If we think of this as a Tao person...we can see that a Tao person may pour themselves into their work and yet make no claim. Nourishing but not holding onto. Being great but not being aware of ones greatness
[7:39]  Bee Blessed: creation implies forceful purpose, wheras Tao simply IS
[7:40]  angel Scarborough: in my studies, that is usually written along the lines of do your best and then let it go, be not attached to the outcome
[7:40]  Bee Blessed: oh I like that, personifying Tao makes it easier to comprehend
[7:40]  Suzanne Logan: it is a natural flow
[7:40]  Suzanne Logan: look at C
[7:41]  Bee Blessed: smiles... not contriving... well said..We do hacve a tendancy to be very interested in outcomes of our work... like competition to do better than anyone else, rather than just doing what one can and moving on. I see the wisdom of this other approach
[7:43]  Corwyn Allen: Okasan is having either keyboard or SL lag problems this morning.
[7:43]  Suzanne Logan: and modelling onself after the Tao
[7:44]  Bee Blessed: as a farmer, it was easier to go this route, and when I entered corporate settings i felt that it was "false"
[7:44]  Corwyn Allen: She's going to try an copy and paste our last verse for today.
[7:44]  Suzanne Logan: Thirty Five: The Consummate Food and the Ultimate Music
All me will come to him who keeps to the one,
For there lies rest and happiness and peace.

Passersby may stop for music and good food,
But a description of the Tao
Seems without substance or flavor.
It cannot be seen, it cannot be heard,
And yet it cannot be exhausted.
She who is centered in the Tao
can go where she wishes, without danger.
She perceives the universal harmony,
even amid great pain,
because she has found peace in her heart.

Music or the smell of good cooking
may make people stop and enjoy.
But words that point to the Tao
seem monotonous and without flavor.
When you look for it, there is nothing to see.
When you listen for it, there is nothing to hear.
When you use it, it is inexhaustible.
The wise man acts at one with the Tao,
for he knows it is here that peace is found.
It is for this reason that he is sought.
Whilst guests enjoy good music and food,
as these are supplied by a benevolent host,
a description of Tao seems without form,
for it cannot be heard and cannot be seen.
But when the music and food are all ended,
the taste of the Tao still remains.

[7:46]  Corwyn Allen: Comments?
[7:46]  angel Scarborough: I like C
[7:46]  Corwyn Allen nods
[7:46]  Bee Blessed: as do I
[7:46]  Corwyn Allen: In this case I think C does capture the essence.
[7:46]  Bee Blessed: the line... when the music and food are all ended... adds a ot to it
[7:46]  Corwyn Allen: Yes.
[7:47]  angel Scarborough: Something that I find often is that there is much in the Tao that reminds me of Zen Buddhism teachings.
[7:47]  Bee Blessed: sensationalism is attractive, but its effects leave one exhausted and unfulfilled
[7:47]  angel Scarborough: very true, sis
[7:47]  Corwyn Allen: Yes, both Tao and Confusionism are at the heart of Zen
[7:48]  angel Scarborough: inner peace leaves us feeling fed, not sated but nourished
[7:48]  Corwyn Allen: Confucianism I mean
[7:48]  angel Scarborough nods to Corywn as she says "that explains why so often as I hear these verses, I think of things in what I am learning in my own studies"
[7:49]  Corwyn Allen: Indeed. They are all one, as they say.
[7:49]  Bee Blessed is feeling a bit confuzzled...
[7:49]  Corwyn Allen: Like the Buddhist said to the hot dog vendor, make me one with everything.
[7:50]  Bee Blessed: many of the studies refer to "we are all one" and yet also refer to keeping to oneself in study. *snorts and laughs behind her hand at Corwyn's timing
[7:50]  angel Scarborough: for me there is much in the way I am learning it from other sources that makes sense, but I like these classes also because every now and then they give me a new perspective / insight that helps to make something I am learning in my other studies "click" for me.
[7:50]  Corwyn Allen: One can be a part, and not apart, as it were.
[7:50]  angel Scarborough chuckles as she just figured out what Corywn said above.
[7:50]  Suzanne Logan: I think it is like the apple analogy I gave that time
[7:51]  Bee Blessed: listening hoping for a repetition
[7:51]  Suzanne Logan: peel is a part of apple as is core, seeds, flesh.  Together they are apple. Separately they are individual parts, but the parts make the whole. The whole is a sum of its parts
[7:52]  Corwyn Allen: Exactly
[7:52]  Bee Blessed: that is soothing
[7:52]  Suzanne Logan: but the parts are also distinct and unique
[7:52]  Corwyn Allen: Being a part, and yet not apart.
[7:52]  Bee Blessed: one can follow one's own path without disrupting the whole
[7:52]  Suzanne Logan: It is like us in this group....we are each we not miss Lysandra when she is not here....and Taras....any one of us not here...lessens the whole, *Smiles softly
[7:53]  angel Scarborough misses Lysandra, I do not know Taras well but Bee and I admired his holodrome last week
[7:53]  Corwyn Allen: And yet the lessons are whole
[7:53]  Bee Blessed: Lysandra is Ok?
[7:53]  Suzanne Logan: we are all so unique and important to the group...
[7:53]  Bee Blessed: others are away over the holidays, travelling?
[7:54]  Suzanne Logan: we had an event last night that was fun...but took some work for some of us
[7:54]  Corwyn Allen: Lysandra was in world this morning. She may have danced too much last night.
[7:54]  angel Scarborough is glad that sis joined the class, she likes sharing this with her
[7:54]  Suzanne Logan: she worked hard setting it up
[7:55]  angel Scarborough: I did type into group chat last night that I wish I could have attended. Unfortunately, my love was DJ at another event and wanted me there to support him. I did tell him though that if he was not DJ there, I would have asked him to come here with me last night
[7:55]  Corwyn Allen: She did a wonderful job. Being a part of the whole, she made the whole much greater.
[7:55]  Corwyn Allen nods "Yes, I saw that."
[7:56]  angel Scarborough: I always enjoy it when I come to events here. Bee began to come to events here with me, long before she joined this class. I thank you, Suzanne, for inviting me to this group. I have gained much from membership.
[7:56]  Bee Blessed was sleeping off the effects of too many cookies, could not remain up and about inworld (blushes)
[7:56]  Suzanne Logan: *Smiles...I am happy you came and Bee too
[7:57]  Bee Blessed: I very much enjoy this group

verse 30 - 32

Today we started with Suzanne, Taras, Angel and Bee. Lysandra came in too. The old C interpretation has been replaced by Stan Rosenthal's which can be found at the following website:

[7:13]  Suzanne Logan: you know... that if even one of you were not here... it would lessen the joy of the rest of thank you for your time and effort to come
We will now be using for one of our translation choices one by Stan Rosenthal,
So shall we begin? Verse 30. This one may be subtitled... Defense and Aggression
Whenever you advise a ruler in the way of Tao,
Counsel him not to use force to conquer the universe.
For this would only cause resistance.
Thorn bushes spring up wherever the army has passed.
LEan years follow in the wake of a great war.
Just do what needs to be done.
Never take advantage of power.
Achieve results,
But never glory in them.
Achieve results,
But never boast.
Achieve results,
But never be proud.
Achieve results,
Because this is the natural way.
Achieve results,
But not through violence.
Forces is followed by loss of strength.
This is no the way of Tao.
That which goes against the Tao comes to an early end.
Whoever relies on the Tao in governing men
doesn't try to force issues
or defeat enemies by force of arms.
For every force there is a counterforce.
Violence, even well intentioned,
always rebounds upon oneself.
The Master does his job
and then stops.
He understands that the universe
is forever out of control,
and that trying to dominate events
goes against the current of the Tao.
Because he believes in himself,
he doesn't try to convince others.
Because he is content with himself,
he doesn't need others' approval.
Because he accepts himself,
the whole world accepts him.
When leading by the way of the Tao,
abominate the use of force,
for it causes resistance, and loss of strength,
showing the Tao has not been followed well.
Achieve results but not through violence,
for it is against the natural way,
and damages both others' and one's own true self.
The harvest is destroyed in the wake of a great war,
and weeds grow in the fields in the wake of the army.
The wise leader achieves results,
but does not glory in them;
is not proud of his victories,
and does not boast of them.
He knows that boasting is not the natural way,
and that he who goes against that way,
will fail in his endeavours.
I'll give you a moment to look those over
I think I like A best but I also like the different C verse then the previous C type
[7:22]  Taras Balderdash: One key point in this chapter is the word Guo, 'result' or 'success' Many later texts seem to intimate that military force is never to be used. DC Lau in his translation of the Han Dynasty Mawangdui Dao De Jing translates the key phrase here as.....One who is good aims only at bringing his campaign to a conclusion and dare not thereby intimidate.
[7:23]  Suzanne Logan: ah... so.. getting the job done without stepping on toes unnecessarily?
[7:24]  Taras Balderdash: Yes, defeat the enemy and move on, don't rub their nose in it.
[7:24]  Bee Blessed feels that violence, while abhorrant, sometimes is used effectively to stem a tide of further violence
[7:24]  Taras Balderdash: If the allies had refused to rub Germany's nose in it after WWI there may nothave been an opportunity for Hitler
[7:24]  Taras Balderdash: For instance.
[7:25]  Suzanne Logan smiles... history is a wonderful teacher... why does humankind not pay closer attention to its lessons?
[7:25]  Bee Blessed agrees with Taras re WW1
[7:25]  Taras Balderdash: Though that is what is known as the 'frog's posterior' theory of history....if frogs had wings their butts wouldn't slap the ground when they landed.
[7:26]  Suzanne Logan chuckles
[7:26]  angel Scarborough: When I read this, what comes to mind is something we discussed last week, something which I am working with a great deal in my own life, the "letting go" pick. A lot of my focus now is on working on myself, hoping to inspire others, rather than push them in a certain direction.
[7:26]  Bee Blessed giggles politely in Sl but burst out in a loud laugh in RL
[7:26]  Taras Balderdash: When it is spring, flowers bloom, and the 1930s was to be a time of dictators no matter what.
[7:27]  Taras Balderdash: It is very difficult not to move people along. Just to let them find the path of example you show.
[7:27]  Bee Blessed wonders if there has not been a dictator at all times, somewhere
[7:28]  Bee Blessed: but i stray from the point of the lesson, that fir the good of all, violence and war should not be lauded or prolonged
[7:28]  Taras Balderdash: There is an old Chineese tale of a farmer. He planted a field and then grew concerned that the young plants didn't he went out and pulled on them to make them grow faster.
[7:29]  Bee Blessed: ;/
[7:29]  angel Scarborough: I am trying to keep my thoughts that when I allow others the dignity of learning from their own mistakes, I show respect for them. I show them that I trust them to be able to make the decisions that are for their highest good. Thus that is one of the best ways that I can love and support others.
[7:29]  Taras Balderdash: His son found him out in the field, full of wilted plants, crying at his folly.
[7:29]  Suzanne Logan thinks on that lesson both Taras's and Angel's
[7:30]  Suzanne Logan: Angel..
[7:30]  Suzanne Logan: I agree we cannot dictate to others.. after... we have perhaps advised them..
[7:30]  Suzanne Logan: and depending on their familiarity with the event or topic and their age of course
[7:31]  angel Scarborough: This is an issue that I am working with a great deal in my life, Suzanne. As sis can tell you (she has known me for almost 27 years), I have a tendency to be controlling. I am working with this issue within myself.
[7:32]  Taras Balderdash: Yes, dealing with those who are older is a challenge. More so in Chinese culture, since there is a dictatorship of age in traditional Confucian culture.
[7:32]  Taras Balderdash: Filial piety demands obeying the old, even when they seem to e wrong.
[7:32]  angel Scarborough: I hope I will see where it is appropriate for me to give guidance and when I must pull back and allow others to find their own way. I am simply trying to be very conscious each time I feel the urge to redirect another as I know I am treading in an area, in which I can go to far and in doing so do more harm than good.
[7:32]  Taras Balderdash: *be
[7:33]  angel Scarborough: *too
[7:33]  Suzanne Logan: hai... i think so in many cultures... and yes... learning to be is a good thing...and I believe the Tao can help with that
[7:34]  Taras Balderdash: Another textual difference is the last stanza. Lau has: A creature in its prime doing harm to the old is known as going against the way. That which goes against the way will come to an early end.
[7:34]  Suzanne Logan: there is much here that brings a quiet confidence to natural processes and the folly of trying to force them
[7:34]  Suzanne Logan smiles to Taras.. *nods*...
[7:34]  Suzanne Logan: lets look at the next verse for it carries on the theme of this one
[7:34]  Suzanne Logan: 31 may be subtitled War
[7:35]  Suzanne Logan: or
[7:35]  Suzanne Logan: even
[7:35]  Suzanne Logan: Maintaining Peace
[7:35]  Suzanne Logan: A
Good weapons are instruments of fear; all creatures hate them.
Therefore followers of Tao never use them.
The wise man prefers the left.
The ma of war prefers the right.
Weapons are instruments of fear; they are not a wise man's tools.
He uses them only when he has no choice.
Pease and quiet are dear to his heart,
And victory no cause for rejoicing.
If you rejoice in victory, then you delight in killing;
If you delight in killing, you cannot fulfill yourself.
 On happy occasions precedence is given to the left.
On sad occasions to the right.
In the army the general stands on the left.
The commander-in-chief on the right.
This means that was is conducted like a funeral.
When many people are being killed,
They should be mourned in heartfelt sorrow.
That is why a victory must be observed like a funeral.
[7:36]  Suzanne Logan turns to Taras... this is the one we talked about that day you will remember?
[7:36]  Suzanne Logan: B
Weapons are the tools of violence;
all decent men detest them.

Weapons are the tools of fear;
a decent man will avoid them
except in the direst necessity
and, if compelled, will use them
only with the utmost restraint.
Peace is his highest value.
If the peace has been shattered,
how can he be content?
His enemies are not demons,
but human beings like himself.
He doesn't wish them personal harm.
Nor does he rejoice in victory.
How could he rejoice in victory
and delight in the slaughter of men?

He enters a battle gravely,
with sorrow and with great compassion,
as if he were attending a funeral.
[7:36]  Taras Balderdash: This chapter has some spots that indicate that the text got out of order. Also, Wang Bi, the great scholar of the Daoists, did not comment on it, indicating thereby that he though the text as a whole may be spurious. It does, however, exist as far back as the early Han Dynasty.
[7:37]  Taras Balderdash: Yes, I remember, Suzanne
[7:37]  Suzanne Logan: C
Weapons of war are instruments of fear,
and are abhorred by those who follow the Tao.
The leader who follows the natural way
does not abide them.
The warrior king leans to his right,
from whence there comes his generals' advice,
but the peaceful king looks to his left,
where sits his counsellor of peace.
When he looks to his left, it is a time of peace,
and when to the right, a time for sorrow.
Weapons of war are instruments of fear,
and are not favoured by the wise,
who use them only when there is no choice,
for peace and stillness are dear to their hearts,
and victory causes them no rejoicing.
To rejoice in victory is to delight in killing;
to delight in killing is to have no self-being.
The conduct of war is that of a funeral;
when people are killed, it is a time of mourning.
This is why even victorious battle
should be observed without rejoicing.
[7:37]  Suzanne Logan: When Taras-san and I talked about this one day.. I had a take away of the following:
The Chinese had many turn-overs in government as the military was not upheld as a high class... As a result neighboring countries took control with their military might. It was the last straw however, when Japan slaughtered the Chinese army. China realized that a strong military was the only way. We will not likely see a weak China again!
[7:38]  Taras Balderdash: I like your new 'C'. This line is wonderful: 'to delight in killing is to have no self-being.'
[7:39]  Suzanne Logan smiles... it is a better one I agree...
[7:39]  Suzanne Logan: as I read these...something came to my mind..
[7:39]  Taras Balderdash: Yes, that sus it up. They often lost the balance between composing elegant poems and whacking barbarians on the head. You have to do both in the right measure.
[7:39]  Suzanne Logan: *laughs..
[7:39]  Suzanne Logan: yes
[7:39]  Taras Balderdash: *sums it up
[7:39]  Suzanne Logan: and it came to my mind about disciplining ones children
[7:39]  Suzanne Logan: we hate to do it..
[7:40]  Suzanne Logan: we prefer a peaceful home
[7:40]  Suzanne Logan: but if we do not...we do not have a peaceful home
[7:40]  Suzanne Logan: ((i always like to bring these verses into some personal context I can use in real life
[7:41]  Bee Blessed thinks that in a home where weapons are present, it is wise to educate the children on how they are used safely.. also a strong military may accomplish its goal with less death and destruction than a weak one
[7:41]  Suzanne Logan bows to honor you
[7:41]  angel Scarborough is working on a different path for peace in the world, but that does not fit with this verse so she will remain silent
[7:41]  Lysandra Goodnight takes a humble bow
[7:41]  Suzanne Logan: ahhh Lysandra-chan... welcome!!
[7:41]  angel Scarborough: Greetings Lysandra
[7:41]  Lysandra Goodnight: Konnichi wa.. forgive my tardiness
[7:41]  Taras Balderdash: Heloo, Lysandra.
[7:41]  Bee Blessed: greetings Lysandra
[7:41]  Lysandra Goodnight: Greetings venerable one
[7:41]  Lysandra Goodnight takes a humble bow
[7:41]  Taras Balderdash: *hello
[7:41]  Suzanne Logan: we are happy to have you !! please sit with us.. next to Taras-san
[7:41]  Suzanne Logan smiles
[7:42]  Suzanne Logan: yes.. Bee-san I agree.. about weapons in the home
[7:42]  Taras Balderdash: *looks around to see the venerable one
[7:42]  Bee Blessed does not know how one can gain proficiency with weapons so that one may use less force in the long run... while at the same time avoiding viiolence
[7:42]  Lysandra Goodnight smiles at Taras
[7:42]  Suzanne Logan: i was thinking more about the reason for the weapons in the they say fear...
[7:42]  Suzanne Logan: it is the basis too for nuclear weaponry that our military gives us
[7:43]  Suzanne Logan: if we have this big thing that can destroy the world
[7:43]  Suzanne Logan: we can threaten everyone with it
[7:43]  Taras Balderdash: For once I htink time has made a difference. The number of deaths in wars around the world dropped off sharply....after 1945.
[7:43]  Bee Blessed: deterrance
[7:43]  Suzanne Logan: I am not saying I is just what I seem to hear them say
[7:43]  Bee Blessed: does it really work?
[7:44]  Suzanne Logan: does that count the middle Eastern and African wars though?
[7:44]  Lysandra Goodnight: Pardon.. which verse are we on now?
[7:44]  Suzanne Logan: 31
[7:44]  Taras Balderdash: But pressure is now building to make up for those gains in one or more terrible attacks.
[7:44]  Bee Blessed: there are so many deaths that are not "war" as genocide has continued
[7:44]  Taras Balderdash: yes, it was based on all the world's wars over several centuries
[7:45]  Taras Balderdash: Unfortunately I can't cite a source because I ssaw it on the History channel. In a rare moment, they were actually talking about history.
[7:45]  Autumn Trenkins is Online
[7:45]  Bee Blessed scrolls to reread the text
[7:47]  Bee Blessed: Ghandi... nelson Mandella... would be "peaceful kings"
[7:47]  Suzanne Logan nods..
[7:47]  Taras Balderdash: On a national scale, as with nucleear weapons, one must keep ones powder dry. The US is not doing that. Within 20 years our arsenal will be useless.
[7:47]  Lysandra Goodnight: Hai.. not all wars are fought with steel...
[7:47]  Aryanna DeCuir accepted your inventory offer.
[7:47]  Bee Blessed: but do not warrior kings arise when happenings around them indicate force is neccessary?
[7:47]  Lysandra Goodnight: Domo, Angel
[7:47]  Taras Balderdash: *bristles at the mention of Mandela as 'peaceful king'
[7:48]  angel Scarborough smiles at Lysandra. "You are welcome."
[7:48]  Suzanne Logan: hmm...
[7:48]  Suzanne Logan: let us go on to 32
this may be summed up as "Is it Not Time to Unify Fragments?
[7:49]  Taras Balderdash: So we will have a chance, unfortunately, to experience the things these last two verses discuss
[7:49]  Suzanne Logan: A
The Tao is forever undefined.
Small though it is in the unformed state, it cannot be grasped.
If kings and lords could harness it,
The ten thousand things would naturally obey.
Heaven and earth would come together
And gentle rain fall.
Men would need no more instruction
And all things would take their course.
Once the whole is divided, the parts need names. There are already enough names.
One must know when to stop.
Knowing when to stop averts trouble.
Tao in the world is like a river flowing home to the sea.
The Tao can't be perceived.
Smaller than an electron,
it contains uncountable galaxies.

If powerful men and women
could remain centered in the Tao,
all things would be in harmony.
The world would become a paradise.
All people would be at peace,
and the law would be written in their hearts.

When you have names and forms,
know that they are provisional.
When you have institutions,
know where their functions should end.
Knowing when to stop,
you can avoid any danger.

All things end in the Tao
as rivers flow into the sea.
The Tao is eternal, but does not have fame;
like the uncarved block, its worth seems small,
though its value to man is beyond all measure.
Were it definable, it could then be used
to obviate conflict, and the need
to teach the way of the Tao;
all men would abide in the peace of the Tao;
sweet dew would descend to nourish the earth.
When the Tao is divided,
there is a need for names,
for, like the block which is carved,
its parts then are seen.
By stopping in time
from torment and conflict,
strife is defeated, and danger averted.
The people then seek the wisdom of Tao,
just as all rivers flow to the great sea.

[7:52]  Suzanne Logan: To me this is about... focus and choices
[7:53]  angel Scarborough: "If powerful men and women
could remain centered in the Tao,
all things would be in harmony.
The world would become a paradise.
All people would be at peace,
and the law would be written in their hearts.
" is the path to peace that I believe in. This is the one I am working on in my life. To fix myself from the inside out and in doing so, inspire others to do the same in their lives. As the more of us who are functioning from a place of inner peace and harmony, the more peace and harmony there will be in the world.
[7:54]  Bee Blessed: if we human beings could conceive of the Tao in its entirety, then it could be a tool for universal peace and harmony, however since we need to break it up so that we can understand it, we have to be careful to stop breaking it into too fine a set of pieces...
[7:54]  Bee Blessed: or risk losing some of the wisdom in ite wholeness
[7:54]  Bee Blessed: *its
[7:55]  Lysandra Goodnight: well that is the basis of the Tao.. that it is all taken in it's entirety.
[7:55]  Bee Blessed nods ti sis, appreciating her efforts
[7:55]  Suzanne Logan: the problem is that many are focused on outside things
[7:56]  Suzanne Logan: land, power, wealth, fame
[7:56]  Suzanne Logan: and how do you bring this message to one who is bent on destruction and hate?
[7:57]  Lysandra Goodnight: You can't force it upon them.... It was seen in earlier verses that the Master only guides the student to the path of knowledge... it is totally up to the student to take the path or not.
[7:58]  Taras Balderdash: This chapter demonstrates a key difference between the Daois t and Confucian paths. Here we have the romantic 'return to the innocence of untouched nature' approach....
[7:58]  Taras Balderdash: the uncarved block.....
[7:58]  angel Scarborough: That is true, Suzanne, but time and time again the ones who are focused on those outer things find that no matter how much they accumulate, they are still not happy. A time comes for some of them when they notice others who are truly happy in their lives and they begin to reach out to them to learn the path to true happiness, not based on material goods or external power. For that to be possible though, it is necessary for lightworkers to do the work on ourselves to show that there are other choices for those who seek inner peace and happiness. We can only plant the seed and when and if the ground becomes ready to accept it, we will be ready to help to nurture it.
[7:58]  Taras Balderdash: and when you assign names to things you fall from grace, ruining everything by giving them fixed names and functions
[7:59]  Lysandra Goodnight: Hmmm a thought... The Artisan sees a block of marble.. and knows the statue is in there and only needs to remove the parts that aren't the statue... but the Master looks at the marble... and sees the statue without having to remove the excess..
[7:59]  Taras Balderdash: The assigning of names, the classification and measurement of the world, is the key to science and the Confucian approach.
8:00]  Lysandra Goodnight: People in recent years have taken to looking negatively on "Labels".... I don't see terms as labels but rather terms of reference.. used only so that a thing may be discussed.
[8:00]  Taras Balderdash: Well, it's a good thought. But it would mean that only masters would get any use out of museums, since they would just contain blocks of marble.
[8:01]  Lysandra Goodnight: hehehe well.. yes, good point Taras sama
[8:01]  Suzanne Logan: let me try
[8:01]  Suzanne Logan: first of all... is anyone here familiar with systems theory?
[8:01]  Bee Blessed: good point Taras
[8:01]  Suzanne Logan: theories I should say
[8:02]  Suzanne Logan: the idea that the whole is the sum of its parts?
[8:02]  Bee Blessed: ?
[8:02]  Bee Blessed: ok my ? was before that last
[8:02]  Taras Balderdash: No, sounds interesting, though
[8:02]  Suzanne Logan: in other words... if you take a whole of something
[8:02]  Suzanne Logan: like an apple
[8:02]  Lysandra Goodnight: I think... this last verse says to me.. that if you follow the Tao, then you may know a thing without having to name it.. the name is known in the spirit which never needs to be spoken.. you know it.. that is sufficient.
[8:02]  Suzanne Logan: and you divide it into sections, each section may be "apple" but it is not "an apple". This is what i think the verse is trying to say about Tao
[8:03]  Lysandra Goodnight nods, understanding....
[8:03]  Suzanne Logan: to try to separate it into little sections or even into verses...each verse may be "Tao" but it is not "the Tao"
[8:03]  Suzanne Logan: does this make sense?
[8:04]  Lysandra Goodnight: Hai.. it does
[8:04]  Bee Blessed: and to become a Master, you can see the sections separately and also see the whole
[8:04]  Taras Balderdash: It opens a window, yes.
[8:04]  Lysandra Goodnight: The Tao is all the Tao, not one of it's parts.. but the sum of the whole.
[8:04]  Suzanne Logan smiles.. and now...
[8:04]  Suzanne Logan: I must be the evil Okasan and remind us our time is at end

Verse 27-29

November 30, 2008

We had a wonderful book club discussion today attendend by Taras Balderdash, Angel Scarborough, Bee Blessed, Lysandra Goodnight, Corwyn Allen and Okasan Suzanne Logan (facilitating)

[7:12]  Suzanne Logan: verse 27 which may be summarized as Wisdom is Effortless Mutuality... and as always we have 3 versions we review
Chinese first, then the university version favoring females *smiles...and lastly the one by Ralph Allen Dale
so we begin
A good walker leaves no tracks;
A good speaker makes no slips;
A good reckoner needs no tally.
A good door needs no lock,
Yet no one can open it.
Good binding requires no knots,
Yet no one can loosen it.
Therefore the sage takes care of all men
And abandons no one.
He takes care of all things
And abandons nothing.
This is called "following the light."
What is a good man?
A teacher of a bad man.
What is a bad man?
A good man's charge.
If the teacher is not respected,
And the student not cared for,
Confusion will arise, however clever one is.
This is the crux of mastery.
A good traveler has no fixed plans
and is not intent upon arriving.
A good artist lets his intuition
lead him wherever it wants.
A good scientist has freed himself of concepts
and keeps his mind open to what is.
Thus the Master is available to all people
and doesn't reject anyone.
He is ready to use all situations
and doesn't waste anything.
This is called embodying the light.
What is a good man but a bad man's teacher?
What is a bad man but a good man's job?
If you don't understand this, you will get lost,
however intelligent you are.
It is the great secret.
The expert traveler leaves no footprints.
The expert speaker makes no mispronunciations.
The expert in calculation needs no calculator
The expert in closing things needs no lock, yet not one can open what has been closed.
The expert in binding uses no knots, yet no one can pull apart what has been bound.
The expert in caring for things never wastes anything.
The expert at helping people never abandons anyone.
These are the paths to enlightenment.
Those who arrive at ther destination teach those who are still on the path, while those still on the path are sources of wisdom for the teachers.
[7:15]  Suzanne Logan: an interesting verse...! What do you all make of it?
[7:16]  Bee Blessed: the references to knots and bindings confused me a bit, as the rest spoke of being open
[7:16]  Bee Blessed rereads
[7:17]  Lysandra Goodnight: I see in this one, some of what has been said in previous verses.. that the true "Master" never needs to prove it, either to himself or to others.. If one is confident in one's field, then it simply "is".
[7:17]  Corwyn Allen: Yes
[7:17]  Suzanne Logan: and remember that "Master" referes to one who is Master of the Tao concepts
[7:17]  Lysandra Goodnight: Hai
[7:19]  Suzanne Logan: which version impresses you the most?
[7:19]  Lysandra Goodnight: To me, the first one.
[7:20]  Corwyn Allen: I like how the first version says the bad man is a good man's "charge" vs. how the second versions says "job"
[7:20]  Taras Balderdash: I agree. The first one seems closest to the original text.
[7:20]  angel Scarborough: I like B but it seems very different from A and C, I have read them each several times and need to go back and read again as I am trying to see how all three are the same and what exactly A and C are saying - translation: this set is confusing me (and I thought starting this week we were only going to do two transalations?)
[7:20]  Corwyn Allen: While it is a job, or task, to teach, there is greater meaning in taking on someone as a charge vs. merely a job.
[7:21]  Bee Blessed: the third states it as helping others along their path after you reach your goal, however should we not assist others as we are still travelling our path?
[7:21]  Lysandra Goodnight: In the last verse I don't see "good" and "bad" as being like good and evil.. but rather.. an enlightened man is a good man and an ignorant man is a bad man..
[7:21]  Taras Balderdash: Perhaps 'ward' works even better than 'charge'
[7:21]  angel Scarborough: I agree with Corywn n the word charge vs. job but the first part of B is much clearer to me than A or C
[7:22]  Suzanne Logan: i had thought the group decided on continuing all 3 ... forgive me if I was wrong
[7:22]  Corwyn Allen: Hai Taras-san.
[7:22]  Taras Balderdash: More than a mere task, a responsibility to care for misbehaving relatives
[7:22]  Corwyn Allen: Hai, Okasan, we did agree to keep all three.
[7:22]  Taras Balderdash: *of not for
[7:22]  Corwyn Allen: But in looking for meaning individually it is good to have different translations.
[7:23]  Suzanne Logan nods.. one of the things in this verse that troubles me a little... is the part about not abandoning ANYONE
[7:23]  Suzanne Logan: sometimes... it is good to let people go... I think sometimes they need to figure things out on their own
[7:23]  Suzanne Logan: ?
[7:23]  Corwyn Allen: Yes, and not so much misbehaving in the recalcitrant sense, but about simply being a guide, a teacher, to help someone along the path
[7:23]  Lysandra Goodnight: Well a teacher does not abandon a student... but the student may abandon a teacher...
[7:24]  Suzanne Logan looks down... thinking... I have had to - before
[7:24]  Corwyn Allen: Sometimes one must answer a question with silence to teach the lesson.
[7:24]  Suzanne Logan: I have had to tell people to go sometimes
[7:24]  Suzanne Logan: perhaps this was wrong
[7:24]  Corwyn Allen: THInk of the finger pointing to the moon.
[7:25]  Lysandra Goodnight: Perhaps, Okasan.. think of it as 'letting them go' rather than 'telling them to go'...
[7:26]  Corwyn Allen: Sometimes one can only point to the path and let the student walk it or not.
[7:26]  Bee Blessed: Suzanne, you can but point them in the right direction... if they stray off the path and wish to pull you as well, sometimes you have to let go in order to remain on your path. this is something I struggle with
[7:26]  Taras Balderdash: Or wasting good raw material. A good craftsman does not wste good material
[7:26]  Corwyn Allen: Rather than take them by the hand and walk them down that pa th
[7:26]  Corwyn Allen: True Taras.
[7:26]  Taras Balderdash: But this text is unusual in decalraing all to be good material, even bad people
[7:26]  Corwyn Allen: A cook is only as good as his ingredients
[7:26]  Taras Balderdash: *declaring
[7:27]  Suzanne Logan: good points...
[7:27]  Lysandra Goodnight: Exactly, Allen, san.. the Teacher merely points the student to the path.. it's up to the student to follow it.
[7:27]  Suzanne Logan: and it is an unusual text...
[7:27]  Suzanne Logan: shall we see what the next one is about?
[7:27]  Bee Blessed: Hai
[7:28]  angel Scarborough: I have a pick called letting go that may help
[7:28]  Suzanne Logan: yes please Angel
[7:28]  Taras Balderdash: I prefer Kongzi's approach. He would not reject a student because the student was poor. But if he showed a student one corner, and that man could not deduce the other three corners of the square, he would not keep him on.
[7:28]  angel Scarborough: it is in my picks, all can see it by just clicking on me, looking in my profile and at the pick called letting go
[7:29]  angel Scarborough: or I can put it in chat
[7:29]  Suzanne Logan: i like that one too Taras...makes good sense for not wasting good things...
[7:29]  Suzanne Logan: thank you Angel I'll check your profile *smiles
[7:30]  angel Scarborough: I think it speaks to what you were talking about SUz, I have it in there as it is something I am working on in myself. *goes quiet*
[7:30]  Suzanne Logan: perfect!
[7:30]  angel Scarborough smiles
[7:31]  Suzanne Logan: thank you... somethings we all need to work on from time to time in our lives
[7:31]  Lysandra Goodnight is reminded of the tale of Nezumi...
[7:31]  Taras Balderdash: Yes, the Ma-Wang-dui text uses the raw material metaphor
[7:31]  Suzanne Logan: Verse 28...could be summarized as The Fusion of Opposites
Know the strength of man,
But keep a woman's care!
Be the stream of the universe!
Being the stream of the universe,
Ever true and unswerving,
Become as a little child once more.
Know the white,
But keep the black!
Be an example to the world!
Being an example to the world,
Ever true and unwavering,
Return to the infinite.
Know honor,
Yet keep humility.
Be the valley of the universe!
Being the valley of the universe,
Every true and resourceful,
Return to the state of the uncarved block.
When the block is carved, it becomes useful.
When the sage uses it, he becomes the ruler.
Thus, "A great tailor cuts little."
Know the male,
yet keep to the female:
receive the world in your arms.
If you receive the world,
the Tao will never leave you
and you will be like a little child.
Know the white,
yet keep to the black:
be a pattern for the world.
If you are a pattern for the world,
the Tao will be strong inside you
and there will be nothing you can't do.
Know the personal,
yet keep to the impersonal:
accept the world as it is.
If you accept the world,
the Tao will be luminous inside you
and you will return to your primal self.
The world is formed from the void,
like utensils from a block of wood.
The Master knows the utensils,
yet keeps to the the block:
thus she can use all things.
To know the masculine and be true to the feminine is to be the waterway of the world.
To be the waterway of the world is to flow with the Great Integrity, always swirling back to the innocence of childhood.
To know yang and to be true to yin is to echo the universe.
To echo the universe is to merge with the Great Integrity, ever returning to the infinite.
To know praise and be true to the lowly is to be a model for the planet.
to be a model for the planet is to express the Great Integrity as the Primal Simplicity--like an uncarved block.
When the uncarved block goes to the craftsman, it is transformed into something useful.

The wise craftsman cuts as little as necessary because he follows the Great Integrity.
[7:34]  Suzanne Logan: In all of these.... I gravitate to the last words
[7:34]  Suzanne Logan: cutting away little....keeping simplicity
[7:34]  Suzanne Logan: I liked the first version the best
[7:35]  Corwyn Allen: I am reminded ot an adage quited by both tailors and wood workers
[7:35]  Corwyn Allen: Measure twice, cut once.
[7:35]  Corwyn Allen: quoted
[7:35]  Bee Blessed: in my work with positive affirmations, we are encouraged to speak to ourselves as if we are a young child, letting go of judgements and habits learned thru previous hurts... that way we start fresh and can manifest positive outcomes
[7:36]  Bee Blessed: less cutting needed if you start fresh
[7:36]  Corwyn Allen: I think the remarks throughout about childhood refers to the innocent state of the child
[7:36]  Lysandra Goodnight: And obvously this verse speaks of great balance.. never straying to an extreme one way or the either but embracing the whole.
[7:36]  Corwyn Allen: That the child is an empty vessle waiting to be filled.  One can not fill a full vessel. And so one must empty one's self in order to learn more - Returning to the state of the innocent child
[7:37]  Bee Blessed nods
[7:38]  Suzanne Logan smiles...those are good points, Hogosha.
[7:38]  Suzanne Logan: and also a bit about once your work is done...once you are an example to the world ...return to the re-filled
[7:39]  Suzanne Logan: For those of you who are teachers...and we all are... if we do not take the time to replenish our own wells - what happens?
[7:39]  Bee Blessed: we dispense stale guidance?
[7:39]  Lysandra Goodnight: The last part seems to say to me that in doing anything, learning or teaching... waste not.. don't waste words, materials, energy, etc..
[7:39]  Suzanne Logan: or we are unable to dispense anything more
[7:39]  Taras Balderdash: People start buying bottled water, that's what.
[7:39]  Suzanne Logan: we "burn out"
[7:40]  Corwyn Allen grins at Taras
[7:40]  Bee Blessed smiles at Taras...
[7:40]  Suzanne Logan: right! we will lose our students... exactly
[7:40]  Lysandra Goodnight giggles
[7:40]  Taras Balderdash: It's the access to the well, that's the problem.
[7:40]  Suzanne Logan: people do not gravitate to low energy people...they gravitate to healing folk and locales
[7:41]  Taras Balderdash: The Yi Jing speaks of the rope breaking, so we can't get to the water
[7:41]  Taras Balderdash: that is unfortunate
[7:41]  angel Scarborough: if we do not replenish ourselves than instead of sharing ourselves from a place of openess and joy (which allows us to see what our students need) we become resentful of the time and energy they take, see them as a burden we have to deal with and thus do not give them our best
[7:41]  Taras Balderdash: Or we clean out the well and it isn't used
[7:41]  Bee Blessed: well said, angel
[7:41]  angel Scarborough: thanks, sis - is yet another thing I am working on in myself
[7:41]  Suzanne Logan: access... can be a problem... and yes... exactly angel..
[7:42]  Lysandra Goodnight: Hai... make the good well accessable or they will drink from the tainted one.
[7:42]  Suzanne Logan: so ... let us not begrudge our teachers when they say... "I need a break!"
[7:42]  Suzanne Logan: *laughs... lets support them in that
[7:42]  Corwyn Allen smiles at Okasan
[7:42]  Taras Balderdash: I gueuss what I'm trying to say is tha the Well is always there, patiently waiting for us. It is we who must seek it out.
[7:43]  Corwyn Allen nods at Taras' comment
[7:43]  Suzanne Logan: and is the Well always a person Taras-san?
[7:43]  Suzanne Logan: or can we have responsibility to find it on our own?
[7:43]  Corwyn Allen: I think the well is a container
[7:43]  Taras Balderdash: In other words, when you are tired, your student has to get you a chair.
[7:43]  Corwyn Allen: That can be a teacher, or a book, or simply an experience
[7:44]  Taras Balderdash: The Well is the Dao, it is God, it is the Ancestors
[7:44]  Corwyn Allen: It is up to the student to see it for what it is and learn from it
[7:44]  Taras Balderdash: It is Qi or Tai Ji, all things to all people.
[7:44]  Taras Balderdash: The teacher is a bucket
[7:44]  Suzanne Logan smiles... I am happy we are all here and can address these things from so many perspectives... it helps my understanding so much!
[7:44]  Corwyn Allen: Yes
[7:45]  angel Scarborough: Actually, I think we teach a good lesson when we show that sometimes we all need to step back and recharge. We actually teach quite a few lessons when we do that.
[7:45]  Taras Balderdash: And the student must put in the effort to get the water...or go thirsty.
[7:45]  Bee Blessed: ((trying not to think "there's a hole in the bucket, dear liza, dear liza))
[7:45]  angel Scarborough grins at sis
[7:45]  Corwyn Allen grins at Bee
[7:45]  Taras Balderdash: Yes, Bee, exactly
[7:45]  Suzanne Logan: *laughs... alright with that .... on we go to the next verse...*keeps an eye on the timepiece
[7:46]  Taras Balderdash: When therre is a hole in the bucket the precious water pours out and nourishes inferior, negative creatures
[7:46]  Lysandra Goodnight: I also see in this... the old adage... "Give a man a fish and he'll eat for a day.. Teach a man to fish and he'll eat for a lifetime"
[7:46]  Suzanne Logan: Verse 29... may be summarized as "We are the World"
[7:46]  Taras Balderdash: Turn a man into a fish and you're in SL.
[7:46]  Suzanne Logan: *laughs as she reads
Do you think you can take over the universe and improve it?
I do not believe it can be done.

The universe is sacred.
You cannot improve it.
If you try to change it, you will ruin it.
If you try to hold it, you will lose it.

So sometimes things are ahead and sometimes they are behind;
Sometimes breathing is hard, sometimes it comes easily;
Sometimes there is strength and sometimes weakness;
Sometimes one is up and sometimes down.

Therefore the sage avoids extremes, excesses and complacency.
[7:46]  Bee Blessed laughs
[7:46]  Bee Blessed: then reads
[7:47]  Suzanne Logan: B
Do you want to improve the world?
I don't think it can be done.

The world is sacred.
It can't be improved.
If you tamper with it, you'll ruin it.
If you treat it like an object, you'll lose it.

There is a time for being ahead,
a time for being behind;
a time for being in motion,
a time for being at rest;
a time for being vigorous,
a time for being exhausted;
a time for being safe,
a time for being in danger.

The Master sees things as they are,
without trying to control them.
She lets them go their own way,
and resides at the center of the circle.
[7:47]  Suzanne Logan: reminds me of a Bible verse.....
Those who have most power and wealth treat the planet as a thing to be possessed, to be used and abused according to their own dictates. But the planet is a living organism, a Great Spiritual Integrity.

To violate this Integrity is certain to cull forth disaster since each and every one of us is an inherent part of this ver organism.

All attempts to control the world can only lead to its decimation and to our own demise since we are an inseparable part of what we are senselessly trying to coerce.

Any attempt to possess the world can only lead to its loss and to our own dissolution since we are an intrinsic part of what we are foolishly trying to possess.

The world's pulse is our pulse. The world's rhythms are our rhythms. To treat our planet with care, moderation and love is to be in synchrony with ourselves and to live in the Great Integrity.
[7:48]  Suzanne Logan: I'll give you some time to read that...It will be our last one for today
[7:49]  Suzanne Logan: environmentalists
[7:49]  Suzanne Logan: it could be lifted from our newspapers!
[7:50]  Suzanne Logan: or from native american teachings
[7:50]  Corwyn Allen: Hmmmm
[7:50]  Suzanne Logan: We hurt our world we hurt ourselves?
[7:50]  Taras Balderdash: I see a different view. You can't hurt it, unless you try to 'fix' it.
[7:50]  Corwyn Allen: I think the last translation misleads, hence your thoughts of environmentalism.
[7:51]  Bee Blessed: B had me singing "to every season.. turn turn turn"
[7:51]  Lysandra Goodnight: Again, the running theme of balance.. of not going to an extreme in either direction.. too much "good" becomes bad.. Too much light.. blinds and leaves them in darkness... balance in everything and remembering that ALL things happen in thier own design.
[7:51]  Suzanne Logan: yes... i was focused on C when I said that
[7:51]  Suzanne Logan: A is likely truer
[7:51]  Corwyn Allen: Hai, Lysandra, balance
[7:51]  Corwyn Allen: Yin and yang together
[7:52]  Lysandra Goodnight: reminds me again of the "Peach Tree" parable in "Kung Fu Panda"...
[7:52]  Suzanne Logan: A says, The universe is cannot improve it... if you try to change it you will ruin it, if you try to hold it you will lose it
[7:52]  Suzanne Logan: what do you think of that part?
[7:52]  Bee Blessed: The universe is sacred.
You cannot improve it.
If you try to change it, you will ruin it.
If you try to hold it, you will lose it. I like that part
[7:52]  Bee Blessed smiles at Suzanne
[7:52]  Suzanne Logan: *grins as Bee-san and Okasan are on the same page
[7:53]  Lysandra Goodnight: It means that the best thing to do in most cases is let someting be and allow it to develop as it's supposed to.
[7:53]  Suzanne Logan: so...given all that
[7:53]  Suzanne Logan: what does the sage do?
[7:53]  Lysandra Goodnight: The sage is a guide.. he makes enlightenment available but does not force it on the world..
[7:53]  Suzanne Logan: avoids extremes and stays in the middle of the bell curve
[7:54]  Lysandra Goodnight: those that choose to learn will learn regardless of what you do..
[7:54]  Taras Balderdash: He doesn't build Three Gorge Dam, that's what.
[7:54]  Bee Blessed: from "C" The world's pulse is our pulse. The world's rhythms are our rhythms. To treat our planet with care, moderation and love is to be in synchrony with ourselves and to live in the Great Integrity.
[7:54]  Suzanne Logan: *laughs... yes you are right Taras-san
[7:54]  Corwyn Allen: Hai
[7:54]  Bee Blessed: balance and care
[7:55]  Taras Balderdash: I see that asa claassic case of trying to do benefit by 'fixing' nature, resulting in great disaster.
[7:55]  Suzanne Logan smiles... so lets stop and let me ask you a question now
[7:55]  Bee Blessed listens
[7:55]  Lysandra Goodnight: "You may control where you plant the peach seed.. but no matter what you do.. it will grow into a peach tree.. You may wish for an apple or an orange.. but you will get a peach."
[7:55]  Taras Balderdash: Only a true sage, like Yu the Great, can help the people by 'fixing nature.
[7:55]  Suzanne Logan: in our last 5 minutes... let us go 'round the room ... and each tell me what you gained from our readings today
[7:56]  Suzanne Logan looks to Hogosha... Corwyn?
[7:56]  Corwyn Allen: Balance. All things in moderation, including moderation.
[7:56]  Suzanne Logan nods good... Taras-san?
[7:57]  Taras Balderdash: Sorry to be a curmudgeon, but for me it made me yearn for my beloved Confucianist texts. Laozi's teachings are useful, but wrong.
[7:58]  Corwyn Allen would be interested in that conversation another time.
[7:58]  Suzanne Logan: it will take more then one pot of tea!
[7:58]  Corwyn Allen: /,e nods
[7:58]  Corwyn Allen nods
[7:58]  Taras Balderdash: It's taken about 2000 years of tea in China so far on the question. :)
[7:58]  Suzanne Logan: *chuckles... and he will be sharing some of that with us I think... sometime
[7:58]  Suzanne Logan: angel-san?
[7:58]  Corwyn Allen: I hope so.
[8:00]  angel Scarborough: I have been trying to figure out how to word this - I think it is because of where I am at today but today's teachings were like water flowing over a mountain for me. They had an impact on me but not a lot today, other days it is different for me.
[8:00]  Suzanne Logan nods and smiles.. many times I need to settle myself and re-read them... and yes...some verses are more meaningful to me then others as well.
[8:00]  Suzanne Logan: Bee-san?
[8:00]  Bee Blessed: I received a message as i have been resisting letting things work out as they are meant to , imparting care and love and balance, not using control
[8:01]  Suzanne Logan: good take-away !
[8:01]  Suzanne Logan smiles warmly at the pretty maiko.... Lysandra-chan?
[8:01]  angel Scarborough smiles as she knows this is an issue her sister (Bee) has been workign with
[8:01]  Lysandra Goodnight: Balance... to remember the Way is an ongoing process that embraces all things. To let the learning come and not take more than what is being offered.
[8:02]  Suzanne Logan smiles... yes.. allowing the flow...
[8:02]  Suzanne Logan: for me...
[8:02]  Lysandra Goodnight: exactly.. just 'let it be' sometimes... and it will happen as it happens.
[8:02]  Suzanne Logan: my take away was to let the students get me a chair on occasion
[8:02]  Suzanne Logan smiles
[8:02]  angel Scarborough grins at Suz
[8:02]  Bee Blessed smiles at Suzanne
[8:02]  Lysandra Goodnight smiles at Okasan
[8:03]  angel Scarborough: and thinks, as she listens to others, that maybe that is why today's lessons left me with an image of water flowing
[8:03]  Suzanne Logan: at the front of the sim...the landing that poem about "Flow". I often read it and invite you to as well
[8:04]  angel Scarborough: Thank you, Suz. I will make a point of doing so.
[8:04]  Suzanne Logan looks round the table and sets down her empty teacup for the shikomi to pick up later... our time is at an end now.... I want to thank all of you for coming!
[8:05]  Taras Balderdash: Thank you, Teacher!
[8:05]  Lysandra Goodnight: A most wonderful class, Okasan.. domo arigato.
[8:05]  Corwyn Allen: Arigato gozaimasu
[8:05]  Bee Blessed: thank you again for hosting , these discussions are a wonderful way to start a day

Verse 24 - 26

Tao te Ching class
Sunday, November 23, 2008
7:00 am SLT
   Verse 24 can be summarized with "Avoiding Voids"
He who stands on tiptoe is not steady.
He who strides cannot maintain the pace.
He who makes a show is not enlightened.
He who is self-righteous is not respected.
He who boasts achieves nothing.
He who brags will not endure.

According to the followers of Tao,
"These are extra food and unnecessary luggage."
They do not bring happiness.
Therefore followers of the Tao avoid them.

He who stands on tiptoe
doesn't stand firm.
He who rushes ahead
doesn't go far.
He who tries to shine
dims his own light.
He who defines himself
can't know who he really is.
He who has power over others
can't empower himself.
He who clings to his work
will create nothing that endures.
If you want to accord with the Tao,
just do your job, then let go.

Standing on tiptoe will only make you tipsy.
Walking with long strides will not allow a long walk.
Shining the light on yourself will never enlighten you.
Being self-righteous precludes you from being right.
Boasting about yourself will never boost your eminence.
Parading yourself parodies leadership.

Tao consciousness avoids the cultivation of all these ego bloated voids.

[7:13]  Suzanne Logan: what do you think of these?
[7:13]  Corwyn Allen looks around for the Typo Demon
[7:13]  Bee Blessed: once again b seems easier for me to put to practical use
[7:13]  Lysandra Goodnight: I think this is another example of what the Tao teaches.. that excess in anything is a deviation from the true way.. do not take more than you need, do not do more than is neccessary.
[7:14]  Suzanne Logan: yes...i see that too Lysandra
[7:15]  Lysandra Goodnight: It almost speaks against competition.. liken to saying "Do not try to be better than others.. instead work to be the best 'you' that you can."
[7:15]  Suzanne Logan: and do any of you know people that brag on what they do?
[7:15]  Suzanne Logan: if they do that too much... it kind of dims what they do
[7:15]  Bee Blessed: yes, there is a difference between bragging and pointing out truth though
[7:15]  Lysandra Goodnight: Hai.. I've been guilty of that... but not for aggrandizement.. sometimes I amaze myself and want to share the experience, hehee.
[7:16]  Corwyn Allen smiles at Lysandra
[7:16]  Bee Blessed: the ends... I have been studyig ways to love yourself and not put yourself down, and that includes acknowledging what you do that is good
[7:16]  Bee Blessed: my mother has a saying "don't break your arm patting yourself on the back"
[7:16]  David Tuck is Online
[7:16]  Lysandra Goodnight: hehehe
[7:16]  Suzanne Logan: this is a good one for that
[7:17]  Corwyn Allen grins
[7:17]  Suzanne Logan: I love the summary verse....
[7:17]  Suzanne Logan: If you want accord eith the Tao, just do your job, then let go
[7:17]  Lysandra Goodnight nods
[7:17]  Suzanne Logan: shall we move on to the next one?
[7:18]  Bee Blessed: if others take example of your work, it is not right to belittle it though
[7:18]  Suzanne Logan: you are right Bee
[7:18]  Bee Blessed smiles and nods with proceeding
[7:18]  Corwyn Allen: reminds me of one of the Adventures of Jack Flanders where he was constantly told "Let it go, Jack."
[7:18]  Suzanne Logan: i often need to remind myself that.
[7:18]  Suzanne Logan: to let go
[7:19]  Suzanne Logan: Verse 25: Naming the Nameless

Something mysteriously formed.
Born before heaven and earth.
In the silence and the void,
Standing alone and unchanging,
Ever present and in motion.
Perhaps it is the mother of ten thousand things.
I do not know it name.
Call it Tao.
For lack of a better word, I call it great.

Being great, it flows.
It flows far and away.
Having gone far, it returns.

Therefore, "Tao is great;
Heaven is great;
Earth is great;
The King is also great."
These are the four great powers of the universe,
And the king is one of them.

Man follow the earth.
Earth follow heaven.
Heaven follows the Tao
Tao follows what is natural

There was something formless and perfect
before the universe was born.
It is serene. Empty.
Solitary. Unchanging.
Infinite. Eternally present.
It is the mother of the universe.
For lack of a better name,
I call it the Tao.

It flows through all things,
inside and outside, and returns
to the origin of all things.

The Tao is great.
The universe is great.
Earth is great.
Man is great.
These are the four great powers.

Man follows the earth.
Earth follows the universe.
The universe follows the Tao.
The Tao follows only itself.

What preceded life? The earth.
What preceded the earth? The universe.
What preceded the universe?
The soundless and shapeless, origin of origins, ever transforming and having no beginning nor end.

This Mother of the universe is boundless, and nameless.
But if we wanted to share with you anything about this remarkable non-executing executor, we must invent a name for it.

We will call it the Tao because Tao means great.
Incredibly great because it occupies infinite space, being fully present in the whole universe, and in every infinitesimal particle.

Because this Great Integrity created the universe, and the universe created the earth, and the earth created us, we are all incredibly great.

 Life derives from the nature of the earth. The earth derives from the nature of the universe. The universe derives from the nature of the Great Integrity. And the Great Integrity is the omnipresent, omnigenous omniform, the universal material and spiritual substance, and the holoversal interlinkage and coition of existence.

[7:22]  Suzanne Logan gives everyone a moment to reveiw all of that
[7:23]  Bee Blessed: verse C uses long words...
[7:23]  Bee Blessed giggles behind her hand
[7:23]  Corwyn Allen grins
[7:23]  Corwyn Allen: Yes, I think he took "great" to an extreme in his translation.
[7:23]  Suzanne Logan: a bit on Ralph Alan DAle-san...
[7:24]  Lysandra Goodnight: I take the use of the word "great" in the first version to be something that is larger than ourselves.
7:24]  Corwyn Allen nods at Lysandra's observation.
[7:25]  Suzanne Logan: he has been practicing, teaching, researching, and writing on acupuncture for 30 years and has published numerous books on Chinese medicine...He lives in Florida and North Carolina with his wife Hendrina Ophey....which must explain his loquacious style! *grins
[7:25]  Lysandra Goodnight: I think it says, to me anyway, that the Tao, the way, is not exactly "linear" but.. like a great cycle of existence, where it is all things at any given moment.
[7:26]  Suzanne Logan: what is do you remember the first verse?
[7:26]  Suzanne Logan: The Tao that can be named is......*waits for someone to finish
[7:26]  Lysandra Goodnight: .... not the Tao
[7:26]  Suzanne Logan nods
[7:26]  Corwyn Allen: Not the momma
[7:26]  Lysandra Goodnight: for it cannot be named
[7:26]  Lysandra Goodnight: LOL
[7:27]  Suzanne Logan: but in this verse there is the attempt to do so
[7:27]  Suzanne Logan snaps a glance at Allen-san and makes a funny face in his direction
[7:27]  Bee Blessed: this description of what we label the Tao has much overlap with other religions
[7:27]  Lysandra Goodnight: It could be a name that only the spirit knows.. that cannot be put into words that can be spoken aloud.
[7:27]  Corwyn Allen: So much of the book talks about what the Tao is not.
[7:28]  Corwyn Allen: This verse ties to put into perspective what it is.
[7:28]  Izumi Itano is Offline
[7:28]  Corwyn Allen: tries
[7:28]  Bee Blessed: and it speaks truly to me, that the infinity of the Tao is such that we must add limiting parameters to it, or divide it into smaller bits so that we can begin to comprehend it
[7:28]  Suzanne Logan: oh that is a good observation, Bee
[7:29]  Bee Blessed: only for our onw study... not that it can be limited or divided
[7:29]  Bee Blessed: we must make amends for our frailties, our limitations and do the best we can to understand that which is nearly incomprehensable to us
[7:29]  Lysandra Goodnight: or more likely that we use 'reference' terms in our lowly 3 dimensional reality so that we can find the path to deeper enlightenment... The spirit knows it.. which is sufficient.
[7:30]  Bee Blessed: ah so well said, Lysandra
[7:31]  Lysandra Goodnight: like someone in a 2 dimensional reality trying to explain the concept of "up".. it's impossible in that setting..
[7:32]  Suzanne Logan: good point..
[7:32]  Suzanne Logan: let me know group when you are ready to proceed
[7:32]  angel Scarborough: I am ready
[7:32]  Bee Blessed nods to Lysandrq and asks permission to share her observations with others, as it is so well stated
[7:32]  Corwyn Allen: Hai
[7:32]  Lysandra Goodnight: ready, Okasan
[7:32]  Bee Blessed: ready
[7:32]  Lysandra Goodnight: of course, Bee
[7:33]  Suzanne Logan nods and smiles
[7:33]  Suzanne Logan: Verse 26 Seductions
[7:33]  Suzanne Logan grins
[7:33]  Suzanne Logan: NO not *that* kind of seduction!!!
[7:33]  Bee Blessed's cheeks color slightly
[7:33]  Lysandra Goodnight: oh my (blushes)

Twenty Six

The Heavy is the root of the light;
The still is the master of the unrest.

Therefore the sage, traveling all day,
Does not lose sight of his baggage.
Though there are beautiful things to be seen,
He remains unattached and calm.

Why should the lord of ten thousand chariots act lightly in public?
To be light is to lose one's root.
To be restless is to lose one's control.

[7:34]  Suzanne Logan: before I go on to the next interpretations.... I have a question to ask the group
[7:34]  Bee Blessed listens
[7:35]  Corwyn Allen listens
[7:35]  Suzanne Logan: we have been giving 3 translations... the question I have for you is that your desire?
[7:35]  Suzanne Logan: or would you like to work off only one
[7:35]  Bee Blessed: for myself, I appreciate the additional translations, as they add depth of understanding
[7:35]  Bee Blessed: and it is not consistent which speaks to me more clearly
[7:36]  angel Scarborough: I find more than one helps as sometimes it gives me an additional perspective.
[7:36]  Corwyn Allen says sotto voce "and big words sometimes"
[7:36]  Lysandra Goodnight: Well seeing several versions does add to some insight.. but I personally only go by the first one.. I understand it the most.
[7:36]  angel Scarborough glances at Corywn, stifling a giggle
[7:36]  Suzanne Logan: I sometimes like B
[7:36]  Bee Blessed stifles a snort of laughter . looking away from Corwyn
[7:36]  Suzanne Logan: but in truth... C seems a bit over the top to us
[7:36]  Corwyn Allen: I tten to agree that more variations give greater perspective in the interpretation.
[7:37]  Corwyn Allen: tend*
[7:37]  Suzanne Logan: I'm not sure we are using it that much what do you think?
[7:37]  Bee Blessed: in this case, C was clearer to me, unusual as that is
[7:37]  angel Scarborough: I can think of only one time when I have preferred C myself.
[7:37]  Suzanne Logan: oh *smiles
[7:37]  Lysandra Goodnight: sometimes I think version C is taking the original Tao out of context.. but that's just me.
[7:37]  Bee Blessed: if the group feels we can pregress faster with only 2, then I am in accord
[7:37]  angel Scarborough: For me it is usually A, sometimes B
[7:38]  Suzanne Logan: well lets look at this verse with all three and then maybe drop back to 2

The heavy is the root of the light.
The unmoved is the source of all movement.

Thus the Master travels all day
without leaving home.
However splendid the views,
she stays serenely in herself.

Why should the lord of the country
flit about like a fool?
If you let yourself be blown to and fro,
you lose touch with your root.
If you let restlessness move you,
you lose touch with who you are.

Inner strength is the master of all frivolities
Tranquillity is the master of all agitated emotions.

Those who succumb to frivolities have lost their inner strength. Those who succumb to agitated emotions have lost their tranquillity

The wise cultivate inner strength and tranquillity. That is why they are not seduced by addictive temptations.

[7:40]  Lysandra Goodnight: hmm I look at A and C and it's like C is talking about something else entirely...
[7:40]  Bee Blessed: in this case I agree, C makes it almost seem as if the desire for tranquility is in itself an addiction or temptation
[7:41]  Corwyn Allen: Isn't the book you'r taking C from called something like Tao and Bible?
[7:41]  Suzanne Logan: no
[7:41]  Corwyn Allen: Ok, I must have misremembered.
[7:41]  Corwyn Allen: I thought it had something to do with Christianity.
[7:42]  Suzanne Logan: I added some comments one time from the book Christ the Eternal Tao
[7:42]  Corwyn Allen: Ah
[7:42]  Suzanne Logan: but not using that routinely
[7:42]  Corwyn Allen: That's the one I recall
[7:42]  Corwyn Allen: Ok
[7:42]  Corwyn Allen: Nevermind then
[7:42]  Lysandra Goodnight: This verse seems to speak of the Yin and the Yang.. that each thing is balanced by it's extreme opposite.
[7:43]  angel Scarborough: "Thus the Master travels all day
without leaving home.
However splendid the views,
she stays serenely in herself." bothers me - it seems to me that there is a waste in this. If one goes on a trip, one should be open to the experiences, to learn from them - at the very least to enjoy the beauty around you. Not to be so deeply inside of yourself that you remain untouched by all. To me that is a loss.
[7:44]  Bee Blessed: this would be a difficult one for me to follow, as I find mysef easily distracted by a bright glimmer of sunlight off of water, a bee polinating flowers, or a bird singing in a tree... sll these delights it seems to me should be given attention and delighted over
[7:44]  Suzanne Logan: this is speaking of being distracted inappropriately
[7:44]  Suzanne Logan: not appropriately
[7:44]  Lysandra Goodnight: well that's the thing... you can be aware of the beauty around you.. and even enjoy it without being distracted by it.
[7:44]  Bee Blessed admits to being easily distracted, and needs to work on centering and calming
[7:45]  Lysandra Goodnight: this goes back to 24 I think.. that excess even applies to emotion..
[7:45]  angel Scarborough: I don't see that in here, Suzanne, yes I see about avoiding what is frivolous in here but it seems to go the an extreme I am not comfortable with - as if the Master is so secure in herself that she has no need for anything outside of herself. I have a problem with that as I believe we all can grow / learn from the world around us.
[7:46]  Bee Blessed: I see Lysandra's point though, that being receptive to experience and learning is not the same as being distracted
[7:47]  Lysandra Goodnight: Well, just because you don't react to something doesn't mean you didn't see it or were aware of it.. just means you weren't distracted by it.
[7:47]  Bee Blessed goes back to thinking
[7:47]  Suzanne Logan: lets look at this in light of addictions
7:48]  angel Scarborough: I don't mean to play devil's advocate here but I would submit that to fully learn from somethings you need to be more than just aware of them, you need to let them have an impact on you.
[7:48]  Suzanne Logan: finding solid ground... helps you to be rooted and unmoveable when you need to be
[7:48]  Suzanne Logan: you retain your self...stay in touch
[7:48]  Lysandra Goodnight: Sort of like meeting your all-time favorite celebrity... you could shake his hand and say "I love your work" or gush all over him screaming "OH MY GOD OH MY GOD!!!"... see the difference?
[7:49]  Suzanne Logan: Inner strength is the master of all frivolities
Tranquillity is the master of all agitated emotions.
[7:49]  Lysandra Goodnight nods...
[7:49]  Suzanne Logan: Those who succumb to frivolities have lost their inner strength. Those who succumb to agitated emotions have lost their tranquillity
[7:49]  Suzanne Logan: here is an example where C helps me
[7:50]  angel Scarborough: In your example, Lysandra, I agree completely. I am talking about other types of things though that one needs to experience to understand, if one is so deeply inside of oneself that nothing is let in than I think one is losing growth opportunities.
[7:50]  Suzanne Logan: here is the comment from Dale-san
[7:51]  Suzanne Logan: "We are reminded here that if we can embrace our inner strength and tranquility when they are threatened by out of control addictions and emotions,
[7:51]  Suzanne Logan: we will stay the course toward the Great Integrity, and be grateful for having done so
[7:51]  Bee Blessed considers herself to be a fan of artists... one of her gifts is appreciation and enthusiasm, which she shares with the artist and others around her.
[7:52]  Bee Blessed: perhaps that is different...
[7:52]  Bee Blessed also loves chocolate to excess... and sugar interferes with her energy work, so perhaps that applies more here
[7:52]  Lysandra Goodnight: not really, Bee.. there is appreciation, sure.. I think the lesson speaks about an excess of emotion... again, not taking or giving more than is sufficient or neccessary.
[7:53]  angel Scarborough: I do agree that degree is important, my only comment is that parts of this make it sound as if the Master is completely closed off to all that is outside of herself and that is where I have a problem accepting this. I absolutely agree that overdoses of emotion can be detrimental, especially of ones such as worry, etc.
[7:54]  Lysandra Goodnight: look at a balance.. like a scale or a board perfectly balanced on a fulcrum.. what happens when you put any more than is needed on one side or the other?
7:55]  Suzanne Logan smiles at the insight of the group...
[7:55]  Bee Blessed: add more to the other side or take some off of the overburdened side... each forstalls "falling off"
[7:55]  Bee Blessed: but too much will break the board
[7:55]  Suzanne Logan: this is good discussion... we will not always all see these verses the same, but the group discussion is very valuable to our understanding I think.
[7:55]  Lysandra Goodnight: exactly, that is balance in practice in life... but to take excess of what is neccessary... is to be unbalanced.
[7:56]  Lysandra Goodnight: like that old expression.. 'You have to take the bad with the good'... balance.
[7:56]  Suzanne Logan: Lets look at the next verse...
[7:56]  Suzanne Logan: oh... wait... it is time to end already :(
[7:56]  angel Scarborough: I am very much in favor of balance, it is an issue I am working on a lot in my own life. *goes silent to listen to the next verse*
[7:56]  Lysandra Goodnight: my that was a fast hour
[7:57]  Corwyn Allen nods
[7:57]  Corwyn Allen nods
[7:57]  Suzanne Logan: i can hardly believe it!!
[7:57]  Bee Blessed is saddened to see the hour go so fast... this is a wonderful discussion
[7:57]  Lysandra Goodnight: We were not 'distracted' by the concept of time ,heheheh
[7:58]  Suzanne Logan: *laughs!!
[7:58]  Corwyn Allen chuckles
[7:58]  Bee Blessed gigglesd
[7:58]  angel Scarborough grins
[7:58]  Suzanne Logan: so next time we will begin with 27 - which can be summarized by "wisdom is effortless mutuality"
[7:58]  Lysandra Goodnight: ohhhh yes

verses 21-23

The Tao Te Ching verses 21-23
[7:11]  Suzanne Logan: Today we will begin with v 21 which can be summarized by The Great Integrity is a Paradox
[7:12]  Suzanne Logan: so we will begin with the same pattern of the 3 translations...chinese first, then the one from the university and finally the one by Ralph Alan Dale
[7:13]  MystiTool HUD 1.0.23: Entering chat range: Bee Blessed (2m)
[7:13]  Suzanne Logan: The greatest Virtue is to follow Tao and Tao alone.
The Tao is elusive and intangible.
[7:13]  Suzanne Logan bows to honor you
[7:13]  Anisa Nadir takes a humble bow
[7:13]  Suzanne Logan: welcome Angel's friend
[7:13]  Anisa Nadir: konnichiwa Blassed San smiles
[7:13]  Lysandra Goodnight: ohayou Blessed san
[7:14]  angel Scarborough: I would like to introduce everyone to Bee Blessed, my real life best friend of the past 26 years. She wishes to join us in our learning journey.
[7:14]  Suzanne Logan: hajimemashite Blessed-san... I am Okasan of Amatsu is a pleasure to meet you today
[7:14]  Corwyn Allen: Konichwa Blessed-san
[7:14]  Corwyn Allen: Welcome
[7:14]  Suzanne Logan: we are just beginning
[7:14]  Bee Blessed thanks you, so very sorry to interrupt
[7:14]  angel Scarborough: Bee, you have met Suzanne before as you have been to events here. Please also meet the very wise Corywn, Anisa who I have not met before and the very insightful Lysandra
[7:15]  Lysandra Goodnight smiles at Bee ... "Yoroshiku, I am pleased to meet you"
[7:15]  Suzanne Logan: Twenty One - The Great Integrity is a Paradox
[7:15]  Bee Blessed: so nice to meet you
[7:15]  Suzanne Logan: The greatest Virtue is to follow Tao and Tao alone.
The Tao is elusive and intangible.
[7:15]  Lysandra Goodnight smiles at angel.... "domo for your kind words"
[7:15]  Suzanne Logan: Oh, it is intangible and elusive, and yet within is image.
[7:15]  Suzanne Logan: Oh, it is elusive and intangible, and yet within is form
[7:15]  Suzanne Logan: Oh, it is dim and dark, and yet within is essence.
This essence is very real, and therein lies faith.
[7:16]  Suzanne Logan: From the very beginning until now its name has never been forgotten.
Thus I perceive the creation.
How do I know the ways of creation?
Because of this.
[7:16]  Suzanne Logan: **********
[7:16]  Suzanne Logan: B.
[7:16]  MystiTool HUD 1.0.23: Entering chat range: Eymerich Lane (19m)
[7:16]  Suzanne Logan: The Master keeps her mind
always at one with the Tao;
that is what gives her her radiance.
[7:16]  Suzanne Logan: The Tao is ungraspable.
How can her mind be at one with it?
Because she doesn't cling to ideas.
[7:16]  Suzanne Logan: The Tao is dark and unfathomable.
How can it make her radiant?
Because she lets it.
[7:17]  Suzanne Logan: Since before time and space were,
the Tao is.
It is beyond is and is not.
How do I know this is true?
I look inside myself and see.
[7:17]  Suzanne Logan: C.
[7:17]  Suzanne Logan: The Great Integrity is a paradox.
It is inherent in the universe, yet its form is so illusive.
It is the Vital Essence of every entity, yet nothing announces its essential character.
[7:17]  Suzanne Logan: The Great Integrity was apparent before time, space and matter appeared to separate.
How can we re-mind and re-infuse ourselves with this very touchstone of all essentialities and connections?
[7:17]  Azriel Demain is Offline
[7:18]  Suzanne Logan: By re-fusing time, space and matter with the spiritualization of our materiality, and with the materialization of our spirituality.
[7:18]  Suzanne Logan: Then, when our dualities and numeralities become blurred and forgotten, the Great Integrity will re-emerge in forms of such incredible depths and dimensions of enlightenment, precisely because our temporary fragmentary consciousness created a multi-millennial amnesia.
[7:18]  Lysandra Goodnight: The first one.. which is closer to the original... I understand much more than the other two translations.
[7:18]  Azriel Demain is Online
[7:18]  Suzanne Logan: what are your thoughts? what can we use here for our real lives?
[7:19]  Corwyn Allen: Yin and Yang
[7:19]  Suzanne Logan: I relate more to the second version...
[7:19]  Suzanne Logan: for putting it into real life anyway
[7:19]  Corwyn Allen: Within the dark half if this symbol is a bit of white
[7:19]  Lysandra Goodnight: I see it as meaning that once again, the Tao is not tied to the physical world. The core of it is in the eternal and it can be perceived by those who follow it and seek it.
[7:19]  Corwyn Allen: And within the white half a bit of black
[7:19]  Corwyn Allen: Thus each is contained one within the other
[7:20]  Suzanne Logan: yes...the paradoxes
[7:20]  Corwyn Allen: So to with Tao
[7:20]  Corwyn Allen: It is both formless and without form
[7:20]  Corwyn Allen: Dartk and yet light
[7:20]  Corwyn Allen: It is
[7:20]  Corwyn Allen: Adn it is not
[7:20]  Lysandra Goodnight: Yes, if you look for form then your eyes are on the material, not the spiritual. The 'form' of it is within.
[7:21]  Suzanne Logan: so really this is a reiteration of what we have already seen in other verses like this explaining the Tao..
[7:21]  Corwyn Allen: The thing is to perceive without looking
[7:21]  Suzanne Logan: is anything new here?
[7:21]  Corwyn Allen: Yes...
[7:21]  Corwyn Allen: and no
[7:21]  Corwyn Allen smiles
[7:21]  Suzanne Logan smiles...and what is new?
[7:22]  Lysandra Goodnight: Only another strong reminder that the Tao is within us. We do not seek it outside of ourselves.. it is always there if we look in the right direction.
[7:22]  Anisa Nadir smiles softly as she listens with interest
[7:22]  Tea Set Tomesode owned by Suzanne Logan gave you 'Tea cup Tomesode'  ( ).
[7:22]  Tea Set Tomesode: Enjoy Your Tea!
[7:23]  Corwyn Allen: A domo Okasan
[7:23]  Suzanne Logan smiles...please have tea if you like anyone...
[7:23]  Bee Blessed smiles and listens to the shared words of the students of wisdom
[7:23]  Lysandra Goodnight: Domo Okasan
[7:23]  Suzanne Logan: and that is the lesson here I was looking for Lysandra
[7:23]  Tea cup Tomesode whispers: Ah! Steaming Green Tea!
[7:23]  Anisa Nadir Domo Okasan
[7:23]  Suzanne Logan: the last verse
[7:24]  Suzanne Logan: best seen in B
[7:24]  Suzanne Logan: Since before time and space were,
the Tao is.
It is beyond is and is not.
How do I know this is true?
I look inside myself and see.
[7:24]  Tea cup Tomesode whispers: Ah! Steaming Green Tea!
[7:25]  Suzanne Logan: so let us move on
[7:25]  Corwyn Allen: Hai
[7:25]  Suzanne Logan: verse Twenty Two: Celebrate Paradox!
[7:25]  Suzanne Logan: we are almost past the paradox verses *smiles but we will never be away from paradox as long as we study the Tao
[7:25]  Suzanne Logan: *smiles
[7:25]  Suzanne Logan: A
[7:26]  Suzanne Logan: Yield and overcome;
Bend and be straight;
Empty and be full;
Wear out and be new;
Have little and gain;
Have much and be confused.
[7:26]  Suzanne Logan: Therefore wise men embrace the one
And set an example to all.
Not putting on a display,
They shine forth.
Not justifying themselves,
They are distinguished.
Not boasting,
They receive recognition.
Not bragging,
They never falter.
They do not quarrel,
So no one quarrels with them.
[7:27]  Suzanne Logan: Therefore the ancients say, "Yield and overcome."
Is that an empty saying?
Be really whole,
And all things will come to you.
[7:27]  Suzanne Logan: B
[7:27]  Suzanne Logan: If you want to become whole,
let yourself be partial.
If you want to become straight,
let yourself be crooked.
If you want to become full,
let yourself be empty.
If you want to be reborn,
let yourself die.
If you want to be given everything,
give everything up.
[7:27]  Suzanne Logan: The Master, by residing in the Tao,
sets an example for all beings.
Because he doesn't display himself,
people can see his light.
Because he has nothing to prove,
people can trust his words.
Because he doesn't know who he is,
people recognize themselves in him.
Because he has no goad in mind,
everything he does succeeds.
[7:27]  Suzanne Logan: When the ancient Masters said,
"If you want to be given everything,
give everything up,"
they weren't using empty phrases.
Only in being lived by the Tao can you be truly yourself.
[7:27]  Suzanne Logan: C.
[7:28]  Suzanne Logan: No-thing remains itself.
Each prepares the path to its opposite.
[7:28]  Suzanne Logan: To be ready for wholeness, first be fragmented.
To be ready for rightness, first be wronged.
To be ready for fullness, first be empty.
To be ready for renewal, first be worn out.
To be ready for success, first fail.
To be ready for doubt, first be certain.
[7:28]  Suzanne Logan: Because the wise observe the world through the Great Integrity, they know they are not knowledgeable.
Because they do not perceive only throught their perceptions, they do not judge this right and that wrong.
Because they do not delight in boasting, they are appreciated.
Because they do not announce their superiority, they are acclaimed.
Because they never compete, no one can compete with them.
[7:29]  Suzanne Logan: Verily, fragmentation prepares the path to wholeness, the mother of all origins and realizations.
[7:29]  Suzanne Logan: lots here
[7:29]  Corwyn Allen nods
[7:29]  Suzanne Logan: because of that lets focus on A
[7:30]  DanteOsaka Deschanel is Offline
[7:30]  Corwyn Allen: Are we focusing?
[7:30]  Corwyn Allen: I see no conversation
[7:30]  Lysandra Goodnight: This reminds me of some earlier verses... more or less saying that if we do not reach or grasp for the things we think we want and be content.. then the things we need will come to us and it will be sufficient.
[7:31]  Suzanne Logan nods
[7:31]  Bee Blessed: like a willlow tree, bending and flexing with the breeze, one must be free and open to all else closed to all
[7:31]  Corwyn Allen smiles at Blessed-san's example
[7:31]  Suzanne Logan: yes... good example
[7:31]  Suzanne Logan: lets look at the first line
[7:31]  Suzanne Logan: yield and overcome
[7:31]  Suzanne Logan: how does that work?
[7:32]  Suzanne Logan: rl example?
[7:32]  Lysandra Goodnight: Well... sometimes giving in to confrontation plays into the opponent's will...
[7:32]  Corwyn Allen: In my experiences as a fencer, sometimes one must retreat to draw one's opponent in and thus overcome his attack
[7:32]  Suzanne Logan: yes. and yes.
[7:32]  Suzanne Logan: *smiles and waits for Angel's point as well
[7:32]  angel Scarborough: I keep looking at that line and keep thinking of things like the US Civil rights struggle and Gandhi in India, passive resistance ... by not pushing outwardly, they were able to overcome the forces against them
[7:33]  Corwyn Allen: And as Sun Tzu once wrote, the best way to avoid a fight is not to be there.
[7:33]  Suzanne Logan: exactly and in communication there is a technique that works quite well
[7:34]  Bee Blessed: if you separate yourself from seeking material gain, then the opponent will have nothing to use against you?
[7:34]  Lysandra Goodnight: Sort of like... you can say more by listening more.
[7:34]  Suzanne Logan: If someone comes to you and in a critical manner states.... "you know that color doesn't look good on you"
[7:34]  Suzanne Logan: you can say, "I probably could wear a different color."
[7:34]  Anisa Nadir nods softly listening
[7:34]  Suzanne Logan: you yield without actually giving up...and really what more can they say to that?
[7:34]  Corwyn Allen: The student complained to the master that he did not understand his teachings.
[7:35]  Corwyn Allen: The master handed the student a cup full of water and told him to fill it.
[7:35]  Corwyn Allen: The student say he could not because the cup was already full
[7:35]  Corwyn Allen: The master smiled and said "Yes, one must be empty first in order to be filled"
[7:35]  angel Scarborough smiles at Corywn's example
[7:35]  Bee Blessed smiles at the clarity
[7:36]  Bee Blessed: simplicity and clarity
[7:36]  Suzanne Logan nods...very good example
[7:36]  Suzanne Logan: and what about have much and be confused?
[7:36]  Lysandra Goodnight: It can go beyond that even... yes the cup is already full.. the teaching doesn't fill the cup.. it makes you aware of the water that is already there.
[7:36]  Suzanne Logan: pardon me Lane--san wishes to come too
[7:37]  Corwyn Allen: When one has too much one is confused as to what one needs of the many things in hand
[7:37]  angel Scarborough: Very well put, Lysandra. I like that insight a lot.
[7:37]  Corwyn Allen: Thus, leaving the many things opens one to gaining more
[7:37]  Corwyn Allen: The empty cup again
[7:38]  Suzanne Logan: what about Be really whole, and all things will come to you?
[7:38]  Bee Blessed wonders how to be empty when studying and learning fills you with understanding
[7:38]  Lysandra Goodnight: yes.. enter into it as though the cup were empty.... insight and epiphany are like that... you think you lack the wisdom.. then the teacher makes it all clear to you and you go "Oh yes... I see it now"... and the cup is now perceived as full
[7:38]  Anisa Nadir is Offline
[7:39]  angel Scarborough: That is why with the Tao, we learn it is best understood with intuition rather than thought.
[7:39]  MystiTool HUD 1.0.23: Entering chat range: Eymerich Lane (16m)
[7:39]  Anisa Nadir is Online
[7:39]  MystiTool HUD 1.0.23: Entering chat range: Anisa Nadir (2m)
[7:39]  MystiTool HUD 1.0.23: Entering chat range: Roselinda Mayo (14m)
[7:39]  Corwyn Allen: Hai Scarborough-san
[7:39]  Lysandra Goodnight: hai, angel... I think that is what our perception is tied to.. intuition.. something sensed beyond the five physical senses...
[7:39]  Corwyn Allen: Seeing without looking
[7:39]  Suzanne Logan: welcome come in please!
[7:39]  Suzanne Logan bows to honor you
[7:40]  Eymerich Lane: ty
[7:40]  Corwyn Allen bows respectfully
[7:40]  Corwyn Allen: Welcome Lane-san
[7:40]  angel Scarborough respectfully greets Eymerich
[7:40]  Suzanne Logan: everyone please meet our friends Rose and Eymerich
[7:40]  Anisa Nadir: konnichiwa Lane San
[7:40]  Eymerich Lane: ty crowyn
[7:40]  Anisa Nadir takes a humble bow
[7:40]  Eymerich Lane: corwyn
[7:40]  Corwyn Allen bows respectfully
[7:40]  angel Scarborough respectfully greets Rose also
[7:40]  Anisa Nadir: konnichiwa Mayo San
[7:40]  Lysandra Goodnight: ohayou Lane san
[7:40]  Lysandra Goodnight takes a humble bow
[7:40]  Anisa Nadir takes a humble bow
[7:40]  Corwyn Allen: Welcome Mayo-san
[7:40]  Suzanne Logan: Amatsu Okiya was represented at their wedding *smiles
[7:41]  Roselinda Mayo: Thank you
[7:41]  Bee Blessed smiles and respectfully greets Lane and Rose
[7:41]  Corwyn Allen smiles remembering that day.
[7:41]  Anisa Nadir settles back down after SL yanked her away into a crash
[7:41]  Suzanne Logan: we are just beginning our next verse
[7:41]  Lysandra Goodnight: Ohayou Mayo san..
[7:42]  Suzanne Logan: Please be comfortable and join us at the table *smiles
[7:42]  Suzanne Logan: this is verse 23 of the Tao Te Ching... and it can be summarized as "Sincerity"
[7:43]  Suzanne Logan: To let your know we give 3 interpretations...the first from Chinese, the second from a university and the third from a contemporary
[7:43]  Suzanne Logan: after the 3 we discuss *smiles
[7:43]  Suzanne Logan: so I begin
[7:43]  Suzanne Logan: A
[7:44]  Suzanne Logan: To talk little is natural.
High winds do not last all day.
Why is this? Heaven and earth!
If heaven and earth cannot make things eternal,
How is it possible for man?
[7:44]  Suzanne Logan: He who follow the Tao
Is at one with the Tao.
He who is virtuous
Experiences Virtue.
He who loses the way
Feels lost.
[7:44]  Suzanne Logan: When you are at one with the Tao,
The Tao welcomes you.
When you are at one with Virtue,
The Virtue is always there.
When you are at one with loss,
The loss is experiences willingly.
[7:44]  Brigid Otoole is Online
[7:44]  Suzanne Logan: and i love this......
[7:45]  Suzanne Logan: He who does not trust enough
Will not be trusted.
[7:45]  Suzanne Logan: B
[7:45]  Suzanne Logan: Express yourself completely,
then keep quiet.
Be like the forces of nature:
when it blows, there is only wind;
when it rains, there is only rain;
when the clouds pass, the sun shines through.
[7:45]  Suzanne Logan: If you open yourself to the Tao,
you are at one with the Tao
and you can embody it completely.
If you open yourself to insight,
you are at one with insight
and you can use it completely.
If you open yourself to loss,
you are at one with loss
and you can accept it completely.
[7:45]  Suzanne Logan: Open yourself to the Tao,
then trust your natural responses;
and everything will fall into place.
[7:45]  Suzanne Logan: C.
[7:46]  Suzanne Logan: Speak few words, but say them with quietude and sincerity, and they will be long lasting, for a raging wind cannot blow all morning, nor a sudden rainstorm last throughout the day.
[7:46]  Suzanne Logan: Why is this so?
Because it is the nature of the sky and the earth to be frugal. Even human beings cannot alter this nature without suffering the consequences.
[7:46]  Nani Yifu is Online
[7:46]  Suzanne Logan: When we sincerely follow the ethical path, we become one with it. When we become one with the ethical path, it embraces us.
[7:46]  Suzanne Logan: When we completely lose our way, we become one with loss. When we become one with loss, loss embraces us.
[7:46]  Suzanne Logan: When we sincerely follow the Great Integrity, we become one with it. Whe we are one with the Great Integrity, it embraces us.
[7:47]  Suzanne Logan: *When
[7:47]  Suzanne Logan: But when nothing is done sincerely, no-thing and no one embraces us.
[7:47]  Suzanne Logan: which of these speak to you?
[7:47]  Lysandra Goodnight: For me the first one.
[7:48]  angel Scarborough: I usually do not like the third but in this case "Speak few words, but say them with quietude and sincerity, and they will be long lasting, for a raging wind cannot blow all morning, nor a sudden rainstorm last throughout the day.
" is what worked for me.
[7:48]  April Cordeaux is Online
[7:48]  Lysandra Goodnight: The first part of the verse says to me that the Tao is a journey and to remain in one place is to lack insight. All things will pass and we go on to the next step in the journey.
[7:49]  Corwyn Allen: A wise person once told me "God said it came to pass, not it came to stay."
[7:49]  Suzanne Logan smiles... at Allen-san
[7:49]  Lysandra Goodnight: I think the rest of the verse can be summed up by saying... If we 'be'... then we 'are'.
[7:49]  Suzanne Logan: think of this in terms of something less ethereal
[7:50]  Suzanne Logan: think of this as to what a leader would do in their interaction with others
[7:50]  Corwyn Allen: To do is to be - Socrates
[7:50]  Suzanne Logan: no in that context...lets discuss it
[7:50]  Corwyn Allen: TO be is to do - Camus
[7:50]  Corwyn Allen: Do be do be do - Sinatra
[7:50]  Lysandra Goodnight: LOL
[7:50]  Suzanne Logan: *sighs
[7:50]  Eymerich Lane: :)
[7:50]  Corwyn Allen smiles
[7:50]  Anisa Nadir giggles behind her hand softly
[7:50]  Corwyn Allen: Sorry, channeling Ho Tai again
[7:51]  Kouta: be patient Okasan...
[7:51]  Suzanne Logan: (whispers) yes Kouta I am trying
[7:51]  Suzanne Logan: *giggles
[7:51]  Suzanne Logan: so leadership.....remember the Tao was written for leaders
[7:51]  Bee Blessed: sometimes when empty you must look closely at what fills the void
[7:52]  Corwyn Allen: And we are all leaders of our own lives
[7:52]  Eymerich Lane: Tao is a way based on mutations of events of ying and jang that furiosly fighting but in harmony
[7:52]  Bee Blessed blushes and smiles
[7:52]  Lysandra Goodnight: Well... a good leader.... leads because he IS a leader.. not because he says he is. If ne needs to be reminded that he is in charge then he isnt. I think it means that to truly be one with what you are, then it simply IS. It doesn't need to be proven.
[7:52]  Eymerich Lane: chaos is the results of these
[7:52]  Eymerich Lane: but is not real chaos
[7:52]  Bee Blessed: live by example, do not preach but rather do and the message goes farther
[7:52]  Eymerich Lane: is a detrmined chaos
[7:53]  Lysandra Goodnight: good point, Bee
[7:53]  Suzanne Logan nods... yes...there is the paradox, the determined chaos, the "being" and being a living example
[7:53]  Bee Blessed: determined chaos?
[7:53]  Eymerich Lane: yes
[7:53]  Eymerich Lane: is a result of events
[7:53]  Lysandra Goodnight: We all know people who constantly need validation for what they think they are. If someone is complete in themselves, others will see it.
[7:54]  Eymerich Lane: actually chaos can be summarized by equation
[7:54]  Eymerich Lane: mandelbrot teaches
[7:55]  Eymerich Lane: what was chaos is not a real chaos
[7:55]  Corwyn Allen: The butterfly flaps its wings here...
[7:55]  Corwyn Allen: And around the world a rain storm begins
[7:55]  Eymerich Lane: yep
[7:56]  Lysandra Goodnight: I think chaos is like a concept... like nature.. people think nature is chaotic.. but nature is very precicely ordered if you look at it properly
[7:56]  Eymerich Lane: will be a day that can be previewed future events
[7:56]  Bee Blessed: I find nature gives me peace
[7:56]  Corwyn Allen: And a lift too is seems
[7:56]  Corwyn Allen smiles
[7:56]  Eymerich Lane: in tao chaos is mutation
[7:57]  Eymerich Lane: determined
[7:57]  Eymerich Lane: otherwise the king
[7:57]  Eymerich Lane: will not appliable


Verse 18 - 20


Participants: Suzanne Logan, Corwyn Allen, Lysandra Goodnight, Angel Scarborough, J3rry Paine

The Tao Te Ching
Verse 18 - 20

[7:05]  Suzanne Logan: Eighteen can be summed up in the paradoxes of abandoning the great integrity (the Tao)
you may recall that the Tao is full of paradox
i have about 15 sec of chat lag at the moment please be patient
When the great Tao is forgotten,
Kindness and morality arise.
When wisdom and intelligence are born,
The great pretense begins.
When there is no peace within the family,
Filial piety and devotion arise.
When the country is confused and in chaos,
Loyal ministers appear.
When the great Tao is forgotten,
goodness and piety appear.
When the body's intelligence declines,
cleverness and knowledge step forth.
When there is no peace in the family,
filial piety begins.
When the country falls into chaos,
patriotism is born.
When the Great Integrity was abandoned, humanity and justice appeared.
When knowledge and teachers appeared, hypocrisy was their inevitable accompaniment.
When family relationships lost their harmony, filial piety and parental affection were suddenly birthed.
When a nation succumbs to chaos and corruption, patriotic politicians are always at hand announcing themselves.
now this and the next verse are paradoxes together. The next verse is 19...The paradoxes of Returning to the Great Integrity (the Tao
would you like me to move on to that one or discuss 18 first?
[7:10]  angel Scarborough: I think 18 first
[7:10]  Lysandra Goodnight: I'm trying to formulate a thought as to how I intterpret 18...
[7:10]  Suzanne Logan smiles... and what verse spoke the most to you?
[7:11]  angel Scarborough: I like B best for 18, especially "When the body's intelligence declines,
cleverness and knowledge step forth."
[7:11]  Lysandra Goodnight: Kind of like... in the midst of chaos and adversity... there will always be those who will "scream at the rain" and point it out to everyone else.
[7:12]  angel Scarborough: to me that is when we get in our way, so that we no longer hear the Tao, we get trapped in the mind instead and one cannot understand the Tao from within the mind. The soul has to hear the Tao for it to resonate for us.
[7:13]  Suzanne Logan nods...good comments...
[7:13]  Suzanne Logan: what do you think of the family reference
[7:14]  angel Scarborough: I think all four of these are the same message in different contexts, when we stop doing what comes naturally we have to create artificial systems to encourage us to do what should be inside of us already
[7:14]  Lysandra Goodnight: I see it as.... like when a family who has it's differences finds itself threatened from without.. then the bonds are made stronger.. as they pull together to face the foe.
[7:15]  Lysandra Goodnight: excellent angel that put it in perspective for me... domo
[7:15]  Suzanne Logan: very good...that helps me a lot... I was struggling with this
[7:15]  angel Scarborough smiles.
[7:15]  Lysandra Goodnight: the last part of the verse is disturbingly close to what is happening in the US in the last few years
[7:16]  Suzanne Logan: yes...and we are starting to see that in the global orientation as well
[7:16]  angel Scarborough agrees
[7:16]  Suzanne Logan: lets move on..
[7:16]  Lysandra Goodnight nods
[7:16]  Suzanne Logan: so returning to the Tao...lets look at those paradoxes
Give up sainthood, renounce wisdom,
And it will be a hundred times better for everyone.
Give up kindness, renounce morality,
And men will rediscover filial piety and love.
Give up ingenuity, renounce profit,
and bandits and thieves will disappear.
These three are outward forms alone they are not sufficient in themselves,
It is more important
To see the simplicity,
To realize one's true nature,
To cast off selfishness
And temper desire.
Throw away holiness and wisdom,
and people will be a hundred times happier.
Throw away morality and justice,
and people will do the right thing.
Throw away industry and profit,
and there won't be any thieves.
 If these three aren't enough,
just stay at the center of the circle
and let all things take their course.
Banish the intellectual!
Discard knowledge!
We will all benefit a hundredfold!
Eliminate all institutions of charity and justice!
We can then return to our natural love for each other.
Let everyone be released from our addictions to shrewdness and profit! Then thievery will disappear!
These three negate the Great Integrity. But to negate thesse negations is insufficient. Three affirmations are also necessary.
the first is to embrace simplicity and integrity.
The second is to consume only the needs of our body and soul.
the third is to allow our love and concern for others to define our essentiality.
[7:19]  Lysandra Goodnight: yes I see this relating to the previous...I see it as saying.. that how wrong and foolish it is to try to force people to behave as they naturally would in the first place.
[7:21]  angel Scarborough: yes, this one took me a bit, but it is 18 in reverse, but is the same message
[7:21]  Suzanne Logan: do you see the first part of the verse focussing on pretense at all?
[7:22]  Lysandra Goodnight: reminds me of how people who do not know The Way will create a problem just so they can announce the solution to it.
[7:22]  Lysandra Goodnight: yes, Okasan, very much so
[7:22]  Suzanne Logan: *stanzas not verse
[7:23]  Lysandra Goodnight: Isn't there a quote in the bible that goes something like "Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools"
[7:23]  Suzanne Logan: yes...exactly
[7:24]  j3rry Paine: many of the sacred texts have such dialectical emphases on apparent contradiction
[7:24]  angel Scarborough: I think I see why you bring up pretense, Suz, in the one about abandoning the intentional search for wisdom and enlightenment but while I can see where you are coming from with that, I don't see it as the focus. For me the message is not to try so hard to be wise that we get so trapped in our minds, that true wisdom goes right by us without us seeing it
[7:24]  Corwyn Allen: The wise man stays silent lest he be thought a fool
[7:25]  Corwyn Allen: The fool speaks, and removes all doubt
[7:25]  Suzanne Logan: it also describes how that affects others in our circle
[7:25]  Suzanne Logan nods...yes good point Corwyn
[7:25]  Lysandra Goodnight smiles at Corwyn
[7:25]  j3rry Paine: lol that's a quote from mark twain, isn't it?
[7:25]  Corwyn Allen: He may have said it as well.
[7:25]  j3rry Paine: oops, i spoke
[7:25]  j3rry Paine: now there is no doubt
[7:25]  angel Scarborough chuckles
[7:26]  Suzanne Logan: *smiles and chuckles
[7:26]  Corwyn Allen smiles
[7:26]  Corwyn Allen: Paradox
[7:26]  Suzanne Logan: well lets move on to the next for it also ties in
[7:26]  Corwyn Allen: To speak, or not to speak, that is the question
[7:26]  Suzanne Logan: Verse Twenty
This one could be summed up in: "The Sadness of Superficialities and of the Unfulfilled Great Integrity"
my favorite is first line... *smirks*
 Give up learning, and put and end to your troubles.
Is there a difference between yes and no?
Is there a difference between good and evil?
Must I fear what others fear? What nonsense!
Other people are contented, enjoying the sacrificial feast of the ox.

In spring some go to the park, and climb the terrace.
But I alone an drifting, not knowing where I am.
Like a newborn babe before it learns to smiles,
I am alone, without a place to go.
Others have more than they need, but I alone have nothing.
I am a fool. Oh, yes! I am confused.
Other men are clear and bright,
But I alone am dim and weak.
Other men are sharp and clever,
But I alone and dull and stupid.
Oh, I drift like the waves of the sea,
Without direction, like the restless wind.
Everyone else is busy,
But I alone am aimless and depressed.
I am different.
I am nourished by the great mother.
Stop thinking, and end your problems.
What difference between yes and no?
What difference between success and failure?
Must you value what others value,
avoid what others avoid?
How ridiculous!
Other people are excited,
as though they were at a parade.
I alone don't care,
I alone am expressionless,
like an infant before it can smile.
Other people have what they need;
I alone possess nothing.
I alone drift about,
like someone without a home.
I am like an idiot, my mind is so empty.
Other people are bright;
I alone am dark.
Other people are sharper;
I alone am dull.
Other people have a purpose;
I alone don't know.
I drift like a wave on the ocean,
I blow as aimless as the wind.
I am different from ordinary people.
I drink from the Great Mother's breasts.
It is sometimes deeply depressing to be a rebel, knowing that we can never share most people's way of life, nor can they share ours.
Schooling stuffs the brains of our children with trivia. The more the trivia, the more their anxieties. They indoctrinate the children to believe that the consequences are grave when they fail to distinguish "good" from "evil", and agreement from disagreement.
What gross nonsense!!
To escape the rubbish of all this so-called knowledge, in the winter people run to the great fests of lamb, pork and ox, and they climb high in the mountains to view the first signs of spring.
We are so different! having no desire for the trivialities, nor for their compensations, we are like infants not yet knowing how to laugh! Ever wandering, and having no home to which we may return.
While most people are obsessed with superficialities, we feel empty. While most people feel they know so much, we feel simple-minded. While most people believe they live happily in the best of all possible worlds, we are despaired to witness this world!
It is so painful to know that we will always be outsiders, endlessly moving like the ocean, aimlessly blowing like the wind.
While we fear what others fear, we don't treasure what others treasure. Our treasure is the Great Integrity. However, until it is shared, it will not be the Universal Integrity, for we are part of them, and they are part of us.
this will be our last verse for the day's discussion
[7:33]  angel Scarborough debates between "arrgggh" and "eeeps" for her response to this one. Most of these I understand on some level, on this one, I am clearly missing something
[7:33]  Lysandra Goodnight: I kind of see this as a look at the superficiality of being connected too strongly to the material... that what people think is important really isn't... and those who know the Way are thought of as empty and foolish.
[7:33]  Suzanne Logan: do you see how the *style* of this verse is quite different? almost poetic
[7:34]  angel Scarborough: I agree with what you said, Lysandra, but I get the feeling there is much more here - but I am missing what it is
[7:34]  Suzanne Logan: go back to the summary....
[7:34]  Lysandra Goodnight: well... could be said this way... that we are not great or important for what we have... we are great and important for what we are.
[7:35]  Suzanne Logan: the sadness of superficialities and the unfulfilled Tao

[7:35]  Lysandra Goodnight: and even then.. greatness and importance are nothing... to be nurtured by the Tao is to be fulfilled.
[7:36]  Suzanne Logan: so the Master is one who does not manufacture trouble for himself with the gains and losses of the world...whether those gains and losses are material, ethereal, or diadactic

[7:36]  Suzanne Logan: The Master follows the natural ways of the Tao...knowing that to be fed by it...*the great mother* - we have had that reference before is enough
[7:37]  angel Scarborough: I don't know. I see what everyone is saying but when I read parts like "
[7:30] Suzanne Logan: Other people are bright;
I alone am dark.
Other people are sharper;
I alone am dull." my mind thinks of seeing something underwater. When I look at this verse, I can see that something is there (under the water) yet it is blurred enough that I cannot get a clear picture of it.
[7:38]  Suzanne Logan: in the small things we can get caught up and lose ourselves and our the big scheme of things... the real treasure is elsewhere
[7:38]  angel Scarborough: Perhaps, it is just not the time for me to understand this one. Others hit me in a way this one does not.
[7:38]  Suzanne Logan nods...sometimes we just need to
sit and *think* on these things

Verse 17


Unfortunately this session's chat was lost. Here is the one verse we discussed.

Seventeen: Leaders
The very highest is barely known by men.
Then comes that which they know and love.
Then that which is feared,
Then that which is despised.

He who does not trust enough will not be trusted.

When actions are performed
Without unnecessary speech,
People say, "We did it!"
When the Master governs, the people
are hardly aware that he exists.
Next best is a leader who is loved.
Next, one who is feared.
The worst is one who is despised.

If you don't trust the people,
you make them untrustworthy.

The Master doesn't talk, he acts.
When his work is done,
the people say, "Amazing:
we did it, all by ourselves!"
There are four types of leaders:
The best leader is indistinguishable from the will of those who selected her.
The next best leader enjoys the love and praise of the people.
The poor leader rules through coercion and fear.
and the worst leader is a tyrant despised by the multitudes who are the victims of his power.

What a world of difference among these leaders!
In the last two types, what is done is without sincerity or trust~only coercion.
In the second type, there is harmony between the leader and the people.
In the first type, whatever is done happens so naturally that no one presumes to take the credit!

Verses 15-16


Suzanne Logan: Verse 15 can be summed up in the phrase "Linking with Ancient Times"
    again I will share 3 translations...the first from the Chinese, the second from the university and the third from Dale-sama
    looks round the table.. and we begin
The ancient masters were subtle, mysterious, profound, responsive.
The depth of their knowledge is unfathomable.
Because it is unfathomable,
All we can do is describe their appearance.

Watchful, like men crossing a winter stream.
Alert, like men aware of danger.
Courteous, like visiting guests.
Yielding, like ice about to melt.
Simple, like uncarved blosks of wood.
Hollow, like caves.
Opaque, like muddy pools.

Who can wait quietly while the mud settles?
Who can remain still until the moment of action?
Observers of the Tao do not seek fulfillment.
Not seeking fulfillment, they are not swayed by desire for change.
The ancient Masters were profound and subtle.
Their wisdom was unfathomable.
There is no way to describe it;
all we can describe is their appearance.

They were careful
as someone crossing an iced-over stream.
Alert as a warrior in enemy territory.
Courteous as a guest.
Fluid as melting ice.
Shapable as a block of wood.
Receptive as a valley.
Clear as a glass of water.

Do you have the patience to wait
till your mud settles and the water is clear?
Can you remain unmoving
till the right action arises by itself?

The Master doesn't seek fulfillment.
Not seeking, not expecting,
she is present, and can welcome all things.
In ancient times the people knew the Great Integrity with subtlety and profundity.
Because they are so unfathomable to us, we can describe the ancients only with great effort.
They were--
cautious as those crossing an icy stream, wary as those surrounded by dangers, dignified as guests, yielding as melting ice, innocent as virgin wood, open and broad as valleys, merging freely as muddy water.

But today, who can remain patient while the mud so gradually clears? Who can remain still while the moment for action so slowly emerges?
We observers of the Great Integrity, who in our times, like those ancients, never seeking fulfillment, are never unfulfilled.

Suzanne Logan: it sounds like a lesson for us in our current very troubled times

Chandra Vita: Up till now It has been about "the Way." Now it seems more about how we travel the path.
    a path that it seems is not always easy.
    But, it is in the process of overcoming difficulty that we learn the most./
angel Scarborough: For me "Do you have the patience to wait till your mud settles and the water is clear?
    Can you remain unmoving
    till the right action arises by itself?

Suzanne Logan: The Master doesn't seek fulfillment.
    Not seeking, not expecting,
    she is present, and can welcome all things.
     spoke strongly to me this morning as I am struggling with something regarding my trip this week, trying to make decisions.
Chandra Vita: I think that one of the things that is so remarkable about this work is that
    while the words are simple
    they speak to each of us differently. about how we Need them to speak to us.
Suzanne Logan: hai and can re read and discover new things
Chandra Vita: hai

Suzanne Logan: lets look at how this describes the ancients
    they were so wise that we cannot understand their wisdom...all we can do is describe them
    and lets look at the descriptions
    think about it

    I love the imagery in this
    watchful, like men crossing a winter stream
    what do you have to watch for when you cross a winter stream?

Lysandra Goodnight: cracks in the ice, for one
Suzanne Logan: hai....your footing
Lysandra Goodnight: but more exactingly... you have to watch.. your step yes
Suzanne Logan: you have to be very careful to find firm terra firma!
Chandra Vita: Be Watchful. Alert, Present.
Suzanne Logan: so the wise watch where they put their feet.....not in their mouths like Okasan does so often *smiles
Chandra Vita laughs.
Lysandra Goodnight: perhaps here, meaning that to be careful of your steps.. to only walk the one true way
Suzanne Logan: nods good point follow the path
    and they must be alert, like men aware of danger
    how are men aware of danger - alert?
    what do they use?
Chandra Vita: Awareness?
Suzanne Logan: their eyes....
Suzanne Logan: their ears
Suzanne Logan: hai...and their intuition
Lysandra Goodnight nods
Suzanne Logan: remembering the Tao is intuitive in many ways
Lysandra Goodnight: all their senses.. being aware of one's surroundings... and the possible pitfalls that may be there...
Chandra Vita: Last week's verses really spoke to Intuition.
Suzanne Logan nods... they did
angel Scarborough: yes, intuition is what "Watchful, like men crossing a winter stream.
    Alert, like men aware of danger.
    refers to, I believe.
Suzanne Logan nods...and they were courteous like visiting guests
Chandra Vita: hai
Suzanne Logan: careful, gracious, gentle
    how would these things help the ancients in their knowledge
Chandra Vita: In everything.
    Even and maybe especially war. These things are spoken of in The Art of War.
angel Scarborough: By being "in this world, but not of it" in all that they do, their wisdom can increase as they learn from all that is happening, and by their actions (remaining unruffled during times of turbulence, for example) they can be a light on the path for others to show them also how to live.
Suzanne Logan nods... absolutely!
angel Scarborough: I believe that each of these descriptions are part of how they are "in this world, but not of it"
Lysandra Goodnight smiles.. "reminds me of that old line.. "when you can keep your head while all around you are losing theirs... then you obviously don't understand the situation" hehehehe"
Suzanne Logan: and the next part reminded me of verse 11 - the importance of what is not
angel Scarborough smiles at Lysandra

Suzanne Logan: Yielding, like ice about to melt.
Simple, like uncarved blosks of wood.
Hollow, like caves.
Opaque, like muddy pools.
angel Scarborough: yes, going with the flow instead of offering resistance, like the one about the water (I don't remember the number)

Suzanne Logan: so then the verse begs the question... Who can wait quietly while the mud settles? Who can remain still until the moment of action?
    right now...the whole world is in turmoil
    we lowly people will see the effects of the market tumble in our own lives and our childrens
    we are about to choose a president
    who will inherit one heck of a mess
    and there are wars and rumors of wars
    who can wait quietly?
Lysandra Goodnight: well it has been said.. "Calmer heads prevail"
angel Scarborough: This is a good reminder though that if we give into the stress (something I am very much struggling with personally today), to the sense of urgency that we have to make a decision right away in order to take away the "fear of the unknown" instead of waiting to see how things turn out

Suzanne Logan: The Master doesn't seek fulfillment.
    Not seeking, not expecting,
    she is present, and can welcome all things.
Chandra Vita: For me this is about Process. The Way. The Path. Not so much about Destination. And sometimes one has to wait on the path. Pause a moment. Reflect. Meditate.
angel Scarborough: we may be closing doors by our rush to action.
Suzanne Logan: I think that the Tao can be viewed in two ways
    very ethereal and philosophical...that is hard to place into practical actionable behaviors
Lysandra Goodnight: One shouldn't seek fulfillment.. .it is it's own end. By keeping to the way, you achieve it.. it's not a goal to be looked to, but rather the end result of doing what is right.
Suzanne Logan: though it can feed our spirit
    but it is also a recipe for practical action as well
Chandra Vita: Hai
Lysandra Goodnight: Hai.. don't turn a blind eye to everything that you feel might not be important or undesireable... but rather be aware of them and be mindful of what IS important.
angel Scarborough: That is what I am working on today, reminding myself over and over again of the many things I know to be true and trying to make my actions follow the path of wisdom instead of giving into my fears.
Lysandra Goodnight: Hai, angel... I think this is where intuition comes into play... for intuition can govern the senses.. makes the eyes see falsehoods, makes the ears hear lies.. and know them for what they are.
Chandra Vita: There are those who say the opposite of Love is Fear.
Suzanne Logan: okasan *smiles
angel Scarborough smiles at Lysandra who so often voices what I am thinking. Yes, I am trying hard tokeep my intuition open today/this week.

Suzanne Logan: I think we are just ready to begin verse 16
    Sixteen can be summed up in the word
    Tranquility... (i love this verse)
Suzanne Logan: Empty yourself of everything.
Let the mind rest at peace.

The ten thousand things rise and fall while the Self watches their return.
They grow and flourish and then return to the source.

Returning to the source is stillness, which is the way of nature.
The way of nature is unchanging.

Knowing constancy is insight.
Not knowing constancy leads to disaster.
Knowing constancy, the mind is open.
With an open mind, you will be openhearted.

Being openhearted, you will act royally.
Being royal, you will attain the divine.
Being divine, you will be at on with the Tao.
Being at one with the Tao is eternal.

And though the body dies, the Tao will never pass away.
Empty your mind of all thoughts.
Let your heart be at peace.
Watch the turmoil of beings,
but contemplate their return.

Each separate being in the universe
returns to the common source.
Returning to the source is serenity.

If you don't realize the source,
you stumble in confusion and sorrow.
When you realize where you come from,
you naturally become tolerant,
disinterested, amused,
kindhearted as a grandmother,
dignified as a king.

Immersed in the wonder of the Tao,
you can deal with whatever life brings you,
and when death comes, you are ready.
Allow the heart to empty itself of all turmoil!

Retrieve the utter tranquillity of mind from which you issued.
although all forms are dynamic, and we all grow and transform, each of us is compelled to return to our root.

Our root is quietude.

To fully return to our root is to be enlightened. Never to experience tranquillity is to act blindly, a sure path to disaster.
To know tranquillity is to embrace all.
To embrace all is to be just.

Justice is the foundation for wholeness. Wholeness is the Great Integrity. The great Integrity is the infinite fulfilling itself.

Suzanne Logan: Which version speaks to you the best?
Lysandra Goodnight: for me, the first one...
    but.. Okasan do you have a copy of the Victor H Mair translation?
Chandra Vita: Hai the first for me also.
angel Scarborough: In this case, I find the beginning of A, the middle of B and in C "Never to experience tranquillity is to act blindly, a sure path to disaster.
" speaks to me. That part from C reminds me of Steven Covey's habit of highly succesful people that regardless of what happens to us, we can step back and then respond with a conscious choice, instead of blindly reacting.

Suzanne Logan: no Lysandra... there are so many translations....we could go on forever
Lysandra Goodnight: ah.. I find it fascinating sometimes...
Suzanne Logan: so I elected to keep it at three....but would you like to give it?
Lysandra Goodnight: hai.. this particular verse is interesting...

Attain utmost emptiness, Maintain utter stillness....

The myriad creatures arise side by side thus I observe their r enewal
Heaven's creatures abound, but each returns to it's roots
which is called "stillness"
Thus is termed "renewal of fate"
Renewal of fate is perpetual...
To Know the perpetual is to be enlightened

Not to know the perpetual is to be reckless
recklessness breeds evil
To know the perpetual is to be tolerant...
tolerance leands to ducal ipartiality
ducal impartiality to kingliness
kingliness to heaven
heaven to the Way
the way to permanence
To the end of his days he will not be imperiled

Suzanne Logan smiles sounds very Buddhist in interpretation
Chandra Vita: Hai.
Lysandra Goodnight: hai I thought so
Suzanne Logan: interesting thoughts
    and angel I liked what you said and how you brought Covey into it
angel Scarborough: Thank you
Lysandra Goodnight: I see this as the very core of follwing the Tao... to empty oneself of everything and in that... you see everything.. and know everything... the stillness of spirit and the awareness of the Self as part of the Infinite.
Suzanne Logan: and just watched the waves?
    has anyone ever stood on the shore
Lysandra Goodnight: Oh yes...
j3rry Paine: ;-) almost every day
Suzanne Logan: in watching the waves.....what is it that you "get"?
    when Siddhartha meditated...on the ancestors...he did so near water
    the waves do teach us something
    I think there is something to "get"
Lysandra Goodnight: But in the true Zen fashion.. you 'get' it by letting go and it becomes part of you... you do not grasp for it.
j3rry Paine: there is a rhythm and a balance to be discerned in the seemingly chaotic waves
Suzanne Logan: Returning to the source is stillness, which is the way of nature.
    The way of nature is unchanging.
    Knowing constancy is insight.
    Not knowing constancy leads to disaster.
    Look at the Tao
    we were just talking about the turmoil of the world
    and how to "let it go"
    and remember I said the Tao is practical?
    this verse tells us how to do let go
    and to take the lesson from nature
    hence my comment about waves...ocean

Chandra Vita: Hai, Nature what is Natural.
Suzanne Logan: it could be taking time with a redwood just as well
angel Scarborough loves the book Siddhartha and remembers that Siddhartha spent time as a boatman, learning lessons from the water as he ferried people across it.

Suzanne Logan: So, now back to my practical lesson
    the market tumbling
    put all into this context....
    return to the sourse that is constant and unchanging...
    keep an open mind
    be with the Way...
    for the principles there transcend the petty world which will pass away

angel Scarborough: And as Lysandra said a little earlier, keep our intution open as it can often cut through that which blinds us and allows us to see what really is,keeping us from getting caught in traps.
Suzanne Logan: store not up for yourselves riches on earth ...for they will be corrupted by moths and up for yourselves riches in heaven that will not pass away...
Lysandra Goodnight: Hai.. if one is following the Way.. then one's intuition sharpens the senses and clarifies what we percieve
Suzanne Logan nods
j3rry Paine: but if not, one's intuition blinds us to the way
Suzanne Logan: know one reason why I love our island here?
Lysandra Goodnight: it's away from the turmoil of the world
Suzanne Logan nods... i think this verse explains... even in a virtual world we can see some constancy...
    ((no quips about the constancy of crashing... i was already thinking that! LOL))
j3rry Paine: Being at one with the Tao is eternal.
    And though the body dies, the Tao will never pass away.
Suzanne Logan: yes... i like that verse J3rry
angel Scarborough thinks that true intuition has to lead towards the Way. I feel that intuition that points one in a direction counter to the way is not intuition but our rationalizing our own desires.
Suzanne Logan: good point!!
Suzanne Logan: when we first started... I mentioned the book, Christ The Eternal Tao
Lysandra Goodnight: If one is one the Path and sees the headlight of an oncoming train.. then one is on the wrong path.. step aside and avoid the train.. and get on the right path
Suzanne Logan: it is just interesting to compare... I think when so many hundreds of years separated
Suzanne Logan nods...
Chandra Vita: These religions all have the same message really.
Suzanne Logan: the time flies!
    well we got 2 verses in today!
    *laughs we are getting worse
    .... next week we will begin with 17 - about Leaders

Verses 12 - 14

Suzanne Logan: 12 can be summed up in "Choices"
Suzanne Logan: The five colors blind the eye

The five tones deafen the ear
The five flavors dull the taste
Racing and hunting madden the mind
Precious things lead one astray

Therefore the sage is guidded by what he feels and not by what he sees
He lets go of that and chooses this
Suzanne Logan: Colors blind the eye.
Sounds deafen the ear.
Flavors numb the taste.
Thoughts weaken the mind.
Desires wither the heart.

The Master observes the world
but trusts his inner vision.
He allows things to come and go.
His heart is open as the sky.
Suzanne Logan: Colors can make us blind!
Music can make us deaf!
Flavors can destroy our taste!
Possessions can close our options!
Racing can drive us mad and its rewards obstruct our peace!

Thus, the wise fill the inner gut rather than the eyes,
always sacrificing the superficial for the essential.

Suzanne Logan: take a few moments to look at those and compare.... which version do you like? dislike?

Lysandra Goodnight: I tend to favor the first.. the traditional translation.. I seem to understand it the most
Suzanne Logan: and what is this saying to you?
Lysandra Goodnight: Similar to the christian teaching of not ammasing oneself with worldly things.. but look to the spirit and seek to fulfill that.
angel Scarborough: I also prefer the first, but in this one I liked the second half of the second one a lot also.
Lysandra Goodnight: Also I seem to see woven into it the old adage.. "Too much of anything is a bad thing"
Chandra Vita: I love different translations of the same work. For me,
    the first maybe speaks more to my mind and
    the second to my heart. When I first
    read the 5 thing I had to think. Five what? Then,
    the second made it more clear for me.
    Looking at a diamond is often enhanced by turning it. To see the different facets.
    Different translations. Good thing.
angel Scarborough: For me, this is also "be in this world but not of it" spelled out

Suzanne Logan: have you ever been in a situation... at work perhaps.. where you felt overwhelmed?
Chandra Vita: Daily.
Lysandra Goodnight: Hai.. many times
Corwyn Allen: Oh that never happens to me.
    rolls his eyes and mutteres
Suzanne Logan smiles
Chandra Vita: pokes brother in the ribs again.
Suzanne Logan: Well.. sometimes what you can do is go inside yourself and find that still, small place
    trust your inner vision, let things come and go, place yourself in a protective bubble
    what do you think of that in relation to this verse?
Chandra Vita: It is what it means for me... Trust your gut.
angel Scarborough: That is mindfulness meditation that you are describing, Suz, and I agree mindfulness is a critical component of this verse.
Lysandra Goodnight: I see it as looking inward... to turn away from things that vex the spirit, for they are unimportant.
Corwyn Allen: In order to hear the one pure tone, one must be able to tune out the other tones
Chandra Vita: Hai, that also.
angel Scarborough agrees with Corwyn's words
Corwyn Allen: To step back and observe quietly
Suzanne Logan nods
Suzanne Logan: good...
Corwyn Allen: In one respect I diagree with the second translation
Corwyn Allen: It is not music that deafens
Corwyn Allen: But cacaphony
Lysandra Goodnight: Hai.. I agree there, Allen san
Corwyn Allen: In order to hear the music one must tune out the cacaphony
Suzanne Logan nods
angel Scarborough: one word that has not come up yet for this is "intuition" and that word keeps coming up to me as I read "Therefore the sage is guidded by what he feels and not by what he sees"
Suzanne Logan: some tones of the music can be so discordant that we cannot hear the symphony
Lysandra Goodnight: or to be more Zen.. it's not a matter of listening to the notes.. but 'hearing the music'
Corwyn Allen: Hai
Corwyn Allen: And Angel has a good point
Suzanne Logan: very good point!
Chandra Vita: Hai, about trusting one's heart before one's brain.
angel Scarborough: That is a very interesting way of wording that, Lysandra ... not listening to the notes, but hearing the music.
Corwyn Allen: It is often a matter of faith. Faith in one's intuition
Chandra Vita: Being guided more by feelings than thoughts?
Lysandra Goodnight: INteresting how some of that was woven into the Jedi philosophy in Star wars when Obi wan says "Don't trust your eyes, they will deceive you, reach out and go with your feelings"
Corwyn Allen: In a sense Vita chan
Suzanne Logan smiles
Chandra Vita: Lots of Taoism in Star Wars.
Corwyn Allen: Do not think too much or you miss all that heacenly glory, to paraphrase the adage of the finger pointing to the moon.
Corwyn Allen: heavenly
Chandra Vita: hai
Suzanne Logan nods... so ...
angel Scarborough: I think in this case, I would say that perhaps a better choice than "feelings" (although I would certainly not disagree with that word) is "a sense of rightness." Go with that which you know within you is right.
Lysandra Goodnight: Kind of a lesson in moderation.. take from each thing only what you need and experience it all.
Suzanne Logan: so what I would like us to see from this
    is the practicality of it in SL relationships
    and RL relationships
    when we are stressed
    if we step back
    center ourselves
    we can let the flow of things move themselves past us
    rather than getting *caught up* in them
angel Scarborough corrects herself on what she just typed as she mistated it in a way. She meant to emphasize instead of "feelings" ... knowingness ... the knowingness within of what is right
Chandra Vita: hmmm maybe just a deeper level of the same thing.
Corwyn Allen: Hai, intuition
Lysandra Goodnight: the philosophy of Stoicism speaks of that as well.. knowing what is right and acting upon that.
Suzanne Logan: *smiles
    yes... but how will you make this *work * for you on an everyday basis
    we are talking philosophically
    but remember
    the Tao is practical as well
angel Scarborough: I think Suz, that when you talk about the stepping back that is similar to one of the 7 Principles of Highly Effective People also.
Lysandra Goodnight: well.. .like in dealing with people, encounters, relationships, etc.... letting your feelings be a guide, but not being ruled by them... I suppose the difference between acting on instinct and acting out of emotion.
angel Scarborough: It is remembering that when something happens, we can almost always take the time to step back and consciously chose our reaction.
Suzanne Logan: good
    smiles... this is good discussion!
Suzanne Logan: shall we continue ?
Lysandra Goodnight: hai
Chandra Vita: nods.

Suzanne Logan: 13 can be summarized by "Identity"
Suzanne Logan: Accept disgrace willingly
Accept misfortune as teh human condition

What do you mean by "Accept disgrace willingly"?
Accept being unimportant
Do not be concerned with loss or gain
This is called "accepting disgrace willingly."

What do you mean by "Accept misfortune as the human condition"?
Misfortune comes from having a body
Without a body how could there be misfortune?

Surrender yourself humbly; then you can be trusted to care for all things
Love the world as your own self; then you can truly care for all things.
Suzanne Logan: Success is as dangerous as failure.
Hope is as hollow as fear.

What does it mean that success is a dangerous as failure?
Whether you go up the ladder or down it,
you position is shaky.
When you stand with your two feet on the ground,
you will always keep your balance.

What does it mean that hope is as hollow as fear?
Hope and fear are both phantoms
that arise from thinking of the self.
When we don't see the self as self,
what do we have to fear?

See the world as your self.
Have faith in the way things are.
Love the world as your self;
then you can care for all things.
Suzanne Logan: Accolades can usher in great trouble for your body. Censure can herald misery.
    Why can favor and disfavor both be harmful?
    Because both accolades and censure, when filtered through self as ego, always place us in jeopardy.
    But when the universe becomes your self, when you love the world as yourself, all reality becomes your haven, reinventing you as your own heaven.

Only then, will you transcend tense to fully be here now. Only then, no harm will the universe proffer nor you to her,
for you will be not you but she and both
--the universal Great Integrity.
Suzanne Logan: END
Suzanne Logan: I'll give you a few moments to read all that!

Corwyn Allen: "This above all, to thine own self be true." - William Shakespeare
Suzanne Logan: you know how sometimes people blame *God* for bad things that happen?
Corwyn Allen smiles
Suzanne Logan: what do you think of that in relation to this verse?
Corwyn Allen: "God is a concept by which we measure our pain." - Yoko Ono
Lysandra Goodnight: I'm reminded of several quotes.. "Hope for the best, prepare for the worst and take whatever comes"... and... " Whether the stone hits the pitcher or the pitcher hits the stone.. it's going to be bad for the pitcher"
Corwyn Allen smiles at Lysandra
Suzanne Logan: good one
Lysandra Goodnight: I only really understood the first translation... but I think what it's saying to me is that the physical form is finite and temporary... that mortality is a misfortune... but the spirit is eternal.

Chandra Vita: I once lived in a commune. We had this rule: No Praise No Blame. I found it worked really well but
    when I left, Not so well. Someitimes it takes all parties to agree.
    Especially the Praise part.
    I think like Lysandra intimated, it is about ISNESS.
Lysandra Goodnight: true.. again.. all things in balance.. if one gets nothing but praise and no criticizm then they do not see the mistakes that they learn from.
Chandra Vita: One can see the wrongness of something without Blaming someone for it.

Corwyn Allen: Yes, Lysandra, to a point.
    But one must maintain control as well over one's ego
    I have been getting a lot of praise from my customers at work
    I don't seek this, but they give it freely and lavishly
    I must maintain graciousness and not let it go to my head
Chandra Vita: how does it make you feel brother?
Corwyn Allen: I must be even more humble than before and still do the best job I can
Corwyn Allen: I feel both good and embarrassed
Corwyn Allen: I am only doing my job
Chandra Vita: nods.
Corwyn Allen: And I tell them that
    That is the humility part
    I can not run around crowing about the praise
    But must take it in and bask in the warmth
    And still do my job in honesty and humility
Chandra Vita: I too feel embarrassed. I do not understand the discomfort I feel with praise.
Corwyn Allen: This is what the verse is telling us I think
Lysandra Goodnight: like when I do one of my neon signs.. and people say "beautiful, Incredible" and I think " yes it is nice but it could probably be better"
Corwyn Allen: That we should not do the work with praise in minde
Suzanne Logan: there is something else here too
Corwyn Allen: But take the praise and remain outside the ego
Suzanne Logan: in life... in work
Chandra Vita: Again, like every verse there is much more here than just one thing.
Suzanne Logan: we think about "climbing the ladder"
Corwyn Allen nods
Suzanne Logan: what does this verse suggest about "climbing the ladder"?
Suzanne Logan: either socially or professionally
Corwyn Allen: That it is all to easy to fall off it when you get too high
angel Scarborough: I keep rereading this one, understanding it to some degree but not quite comfortable with it. I like Corywn's Shakespeare quote for it and Lysandra's "the physical form is finite and temporary... " but I don't think I agree that anything in it is about misfortune.
Lysandra Goodnight: overcoming an obstacle perhaps.. progressing to the next level in the journey.
Suzanne Logan: here is what this says to me about climbing the ladder
Corwyn Allen: Angel makes a good point
Corwyn Allen listens to Okasan
Suzanne Logan: the idea to hope always for success...for more .... for greater... it can *bite* into our ability to be content
    read the last part of the verse with that in mind
    it is about being in the present
    in the here and now....not that aspiring is bad
    but getting caught up in it subtracts from life
angel Scarborough: yes, in this verse as in many of the others there is very much a strong underlying flavor of mindfulness
Corwyn Allen: There is a book I once read called Be Here Now.
    The title was set in a circle, repearting itself
Chandra Vita: Ram Das
Corwyn Allen: in different ways
    So that when you read the whole thing It read
    Be here now, here be now, now be here now
angel Scarborough smiles widely. Ram Dass is one of my favorite teachers. I have been learning from him for over twenty years.
Corwyn Allen: It is not the goal, but the journey and what one learns now.
Suzanne Logan: Yes ! I like that Allen-san
angel Scarborough goes slightly off topic to say that she in fact just finished yesterday, Ram Dass' newest book "Still Here" that he wrote after his stroke.

Suzanne Logan: 14 can be summed up in "Beyond Reason"
    Look, it cannot be seen - it is beyond form.
Listen, it cannot be heard - it is beyond sound.
Grasp, it cannot be held - it is intangible.
These three are indefinable;
Therefore they are joined in one.

From above it is not bright;
From below it is not dark;
An unbroken thread beyond description.
It returns to nothingness.
The form of the formless.
The image of the imageless,
It is called the indefinable and beyond imagination.

Stand before it and there is no beginning.
Follow it and there is no end.
Stay with the ancient Tao,
Move with the present.

Kowing the ancient beginning is the essence of Tao.
Suzanne Logan: Look, and it can't be seen.
Listen, and it can't be heard.
Reach, and it can't be grasped.

Above, it isn't bright.
Below, it isn't dark.
Seamless, unnamable,
it returns to the realm of nothing.
Form that includes all forms,
image without an image,
subtle, beyond all conception.

Approach it and there is no beginning;
follow it and there is no end.
You can't know it, but you can be it,
at ease in your own life.
Just realize where you come from:
this is the essence of wisdom.
Suzanne Logan: That which we look at but cannot see is the invisible.
That which we listen to but cannot hear is the inaudible.
That which we reach for but cannot grasp is the intangible.
Beyond reason, these three merge, contradicting experience.
Their rising side isn't bright. Their setting side isn't dark.
Sense-less, unnamable, they return to the realms of nothingness.
Form without form, image without image, indefinable, ineluctable (inevitable), elusive.
Confronting them, you see no beginning. Following them, you see no end.
Yet, riding the plowless plow can seed the timeless Tao, harvesting the secret transcendence of the Now.
Suzanne Logan: END

Suzanne Logan: the versions are a bit more different i think in this one...which one speaks to you the best?

Lysandra Goodnight: the first one again (smiles)...... that the eternal is without beginning or end.. it is without time or form... it cannot be described for it simply "IS"...
Corwyn Allen imagines a Mobius strip
Lysandra Goodnight: to try to see the beginning or end or even the form of it is to focus on the pysical. The eternal spirit is all things at any given moment..
Chandra Vita: I cannot choose which I like best of all of these forms in all the verses. They are all just different. They all seem equally beautiful and instructive.
Suzanne Logan: this verse describes the Tao
    it is meditative
    fI think we were all just contemplating this
    I like the second translation here
angel Scarborough: I am thinking about it also. Corwyn's mobius strip reference for it made me smile though.
Corwyn Allen: I don't think it's a coincidence that the mobius strip is also the sign for infinity
    It could also easily be the sign for Tao
    Having no beginning or ending
Chandra Vita: Alpha and Omega.
Corwyn Allen: Well no, as alpha and omega imply a beginning and an end
Chandra Vita: but in a circle so no real beginning or end.
Corwyn Allen: Yes, like the mandala of the Hindi.
Suzanne Logan: yes... i like that
Corwyn Allen: But even there is the implication that all things return to their source
    The Tao is source
    It has no beginning or end
Suzanne Logan: I liked this part too
angel Scarborough: and also that both seem mystifying in a way (the Tao and the Mobius Strip). You can try to explain both and yet with both, the mind is still left with a sense of unreality as for me with both, there is a sense of "can
Suzanne Logan: Approach it and there is no beginning;
    follow it and there is no end.

You can't know it, but you can be it,
at ease in your own life.
Just realize where you come from:
this is the essence of wisdom.

angel Scarborough: t quite pin it down" ... almost got it, but something elusive there.
Corwyn Allen: Yes, Angel.
Suzanne Logan nods and agrees with Angel
Corwyn Allen: And on Okasan's thought it also relates back to intuition.
    Being true to one's self
    Just realize where you come from
    And you'll know where you're going
    It is the journey, not the goal
Lysandra Goodnight: or to take it deeper, any symbol of it implies form, which it has not.... the true symbol of the Tao is the one in the heart and the spirit.. the one seen with one's understanding, not with one's eyes... I think that's what is meant by seeing it, it is not seen.
Corwyn Allen nods
    Relating back to the first verse that states the Tao that can be seen is not the true Tao
Lysandra Goodnight nods
Chandra Vita: I think this is like: often the third interpretation for me clarifies the first. But then, it limits the first to only one interpretation [aspect, facet]. Beginning and End do not have to be seen linearly.
Lysandra Goodnight: Like the proverb that says.. "If you see the Buddah on the side of the road you should kill him.. for the true Buddah resides in the heart"
angel Scarborough: "the one seen with one's understanding, not with one's eyes" I think that was very well worded, Lysandra.
Suzanne Logan: ok lets start with 15 next week....

Verses 9-11

Suzanne Logan: Last time we did not finish our 5 verses and that is alright because the purpose is to enjoy our discussion of the concepts...
    some are deeper than others and it is perfectly fine that we treat each verse individually.
    I will follow the same format as last them in 3 interpretaions... when I say "done" then it opens the floor for discussion...     so the first will be the Japanese, the second from the university, and the third the creative interpretor
So Verse 9.
This can be summed up in one word: Overfulfillment

Better stop short than fill to the brim.
Over-sharpen the blade, and the edge will soon blunt.

Amass a store of gold and jade, and no one can protect it.
Claim wealth and titles, and disaster will follow.

Retire when the work is done.
This is the way of heaven.

Fill your bowl to the brim
and it will spill.

Keep sharpening your knife
and it will blunt.

Chase after money and security
and your heart will never unclench.

Care about people's approval
and you will be their prisoner.

Do your work, then step back.
The only path to serenity.

Keep filling your bowl and it will spill over.

Keep sharpening your knife, and it will blunt.

Keep hoarding gold in your house, and you will be robbed.

Keep seeking approval, and you will be chained.

The Great Integrity leads to actualization, never overfullment.


Lysandra Goodnight: I see a parallel in the biblical christian ethic of not seeking to garner riches or acolydes in this life.... rather doing what must be done and seeking spiritual fulfillment

Veritas Veloce: that is very thought provoking to me...........
Lysandra Goodnight: how it says that one may sacrifice one's own soul for the riches of the world
Veritas Veloce: indeed
Chandra Vita: Perhaps the corallary too that not only should one not fill to overflowing but
    one should start with an Empty bowl.
Suzanne Logan listens - pondering
Lysandra Goodnight: perhaps... a short version is "take only what you need"
Lysandra Goodnight: I see the verse as a personification of moderation at it's fullest
Chandra Vita: I have always loved the knife metaphor of sharpening too much.
Veritas Veloce agrees.
Lysandra Goodnight nods
Suzanne Logan: it is... moderation
Chandra Vita: hai
Lysandra Goodnight: like a single sweet will be a moment of pleasure... 100 of them will make you sick and so on..
Veritas Veloce: So good selection for us here at Amatsu...Love, Moderation, and Humility
Suzanne Logan: in the last interpretation...
    Keep seeking approval and you will be chained...
    please discuss that one a little
Lysandra Goodnight: yes that struck me.. I understand that one..
Veritas Veloce: Approval must come from within i think.
Lysandra Goodnight: if it matters too much to you what other people think.. you'll be forever striving to live up to someone else's image of what you should be.. and not looking to yourself
Corwyn Allen: One must do the work, then step back seeking no approval or accolades.
Chandra Vita nods.
Corwyn Allen: Do the work for the work's sake.
Suzanne Logan: exactly
Suzanne Logan smiles
Chandra Vita: Hai that is the core.
Lysandra Goodnight: exactly.. if YOU know you've done a good job.. that's the opinion that matters the most.
Suzanne Logan smiles at Lysandra...pleased at how she is taking this in
Chandra Vita smiles.
Lysandra Goodnight: the moderation factor applies here too... artists are their own worst critics..
Suzanne Logan: That is a good point
    moderation can be taking too much of a good thing
    and it can mean taking or accepting too much of the opposite as well

    Tell me
    have you ever met someone who is constantly self-deprecating?
    ....constantly putting themselves down?
Chandra Vita: hmmm, smiling, maybe.
Lysandra Goodnight looks a bit uncomfortable
Chandra Vita laughs.
Suzanne Logan: Well we all may do that from time to time...
Lysandra Goodnight: I think everyone here has met someone like that (coughs)
Suzanne Logan: it is easy to slip into this
Corwyn Allen: You mean someone who seeks approval from others by putting themselves down
Lysandra Goodnight: Hai.. very easy.... I'm an expert on that heh..
Corwyn Allen: because their words make them feel better.
Suzanne Logan: and somewhere we learned that it was the right thing to do...that it was the definition of modesty
Suzanne Logan looks at Corwyn...
Lysandra Goodnight: well put Allen san...
Suzanne Logan: well not exactly...
Lysandra Goodnight: I think that's at the core of it.
Suzanne Logan: but just they are people who taint anything good they do with a negative
Lysandra Goodnight: some run themselves down and look for someone to tell them they're wrong..
Chandra Vita: I don't know if it has too be that motivation always though.
    I think some folks just have poor self-esteem.

Suzanne Logan: I guess what i want to know is
    if you know someone like do they make you feel?
Chandra Vita: drained.
Lysandra Goodnight nods
Corwyn Allen: Sad
Corwyn Allen: Comfort them
Corwyn Allen: And wanting to help them
Lysandra Goodnight: or helpless because nothing you say makes a difference to them
Corwyn Allen: That too
Suzanne Logan nods
Suzanne Logan: and how does it make that person feel - can you thinkof it?
Veritas Veloce: feels insincere...when people try "too hard"
Lysandra Goodnight: you get exposed to too much of it.. then you start to doubt yourself if you fall into that trap
Chandra Vita: I think that the behavior is not always manipulative to try to get praise.
    I think sometimes it is like the anorexic person who
    looks into a mirror and really does see Fat
    when all others see very skinny.
Suzanne Logan nods exactly

Suzanne Logan: So... the last portion of the verse gives a remedy
    What is that?
Lysandra Goodnight: Look to your own path...
    and make the journey because no one is going to carry you there.
Corwyn Allen thinks of Jack Flanders
Chandra Vita: Let Go.
Suzanne Logan: Perfect
    Let go

Suzanne Logan: I like the first interpretation here...
    Retire when the work is done....this is the way of heaven...
    God rested on the 7th day ... and called it good
Chandra Vita: Ah excellent - incredible - did not see that coming.
Lysandra Goodnight: or like a sculptor.... if they kept chiseling at it after it's done.. then they'd end up with a pile of rubble
Corwyn Allen nods
Lysandra Goodnight: I suppose wisdom is knowing when you're finished
Suzanne Logan: like now!
Lysandra Goodnight: Richard Bach wrote:
    There's a key to knowing when your mission on earth is finished.....
    If you're still alive... it isn't.
    From the Reluctant Prophet
Suzanne Logan nods.. good quote

Suzanne Logan looks at the light reflecting on the water
    Ooh that is sooo pretty!

Suzanne Logan: 10
    is summed up in the word "Limitations"

    Now I will warn you...
    this one requires some thought...
    slow chewing for me anyway...

Carrying the body and soul and embracing the one,
Can you avoid separation?

Washing and cleaning the primal vision,
Can you be without stain?

Attending fully and becoming supple,
Can you be as a newborn babe?

Loving all men and ruling the country,
Can you be without cleverness?

Opening and closing the gates of heaven,
Can you play the role of woman?

Understanding and being open to all things,
Are you able to do nothing?

Giving birth and nourishing,
Bearing yet not possessing,
Working yet not taking credit,
Leading yet not dominating,

This is the Primal Virtue.

Can you coax your mind from its wandering
and keep to the original oneness?

Can you let your body become
supple as a newborn child's?

Can you cleanse your inner vision
until you see nothing but the light?

Can you love people and lead them
without imposing your will?

Can you deal with the most vital matters
by letting events take their course?

Can you step back from you own mind
and thus understand all things?

Giving birth and nourishing,
having without possessing,
acting with no expectations,
leading and not trying to control:
this is the supreme virtue.

When embracing the unity of mind, body, emotions and spiritual being,
can we transcend our fragmentations without leaving a trace?

When Qi Gong sculpts sinew suppleness,
can our flesh become soft as a new born babe?

Can we cleanse the inner vision,
leaving mind in spiritual purity?

Can our affairs of the heart, and our affairs of state be so unconditional that we grant unqualified permissibility?

Can the gate to Yin be opened without inviting Yang?

Can our reasoning mind be purged of coercion allowing our heart its unfettered joy?

Can we act like every other species,
seeking no reward,
taking no pride,
guiding without enslaving?

Such is our vision of the Great Integrity on whose path we have at last planted both feet,
ready to move,
step by step,
until we arrive at the great unfettered gate.


Veritas Veloce: i like the last...interpretation the best
Chandra Vita: I am always reminded of Rudyard Kiplings poem If when I read this verse.
Suzanne Logan: oh yes.. it is a wonderful poem - thank you Chandra
Chandra Vita: Chandra's contribution for the lesson.
Akasuki Aichi: then you are a man IF
Chandra Vita: hee hee
Akasuki Aichi: *lol
Chandra Vita: LOL
Corwyn Allen: I like Kipling. I have often Kipled.
Akasuki Aichi: I am familiar with the poem,

Suzanne Logan: the theme on this is Limitations....
    sometimes...we try to do tooo much
Lysandra Goodnight grins at Corwyn
Suzanne Logan: sometimes...we are human "doings" instead of human "beings"
Chandra Vita: Wonder if Kipling knew of the Tao Te Ching or it is just Universal wisdom.
Veritas Veloce smiles at that thought
Corwyn Allen smiles "Well put"
Suzanne Logan: so... again...this is about moderation
Lysandra Goodnight: yes I was getting that too from this verse.. that.. some things just "are".. like the journey itself.. don't be concerend with "how" you're going to travel the path... just do it...
Suzanne Logan: knowing yourself and the situation well enough to make a judgment
Corwyn Allen: Not doing fo rthe sake of taking credit.
Veritas Veloce: human "doings" instead of human "beings".....great Thought Okasan.
Suzanne Logan smiles
Corwyn Allen: But doing for the sake of doing, and only as much as you can do well.

Suzanne Logan: exactly Allen-san
    if your plate is full... and you cannot say "no" to someone who asks for one more thing....
    you run the risk of ruin to yourself and everyone else...
    a lesson I have a hard time with personally
    it is hard for me to say, "no"
Suzanne Logan sighs

Lysandra Goodnight: I just thought of an interesting analogy.....
Suzanne Logan listens
Corwyn Allen: Or as the cartoonist B. Kliban once wrote, "Never eat anything bigger than your head."
Suzanne Logan: *laughs at that quote
Lysandra Goodnight: "The Master said 'bring me 10 pieces of coal'... the apprentice brought 20 thinking it would be twice as good.. the Master then had to divert from the actual job to find a place for the 10 pieces he didn't need.
Veritas Veloce: thats good Lysandra..perfect analogy.
Lysandra Goodnight: do only what is enough to do the job...
Chandra Vita: The Ho-shang Kung commentary says:
Chandra Vita: One shoud be as calm and flexible as a women."
Chandra Vita: Just to get in one for the gals.
Lysandra Goodnight: heh
Chandra Vita: this verse I think is about flexible too.
Chandra Vita: Maybe flexible mostly.
Akasuki Aichi: Have you read the Tao of Pooh?
Chandra Vita: Oh yes excellent book.
Lysandra Goodnight: I think that's imagery more than anything.. Men are hard and inflexible.. women are sinewy and bend like willows... or the like.
Corwyn Allen smiles "And the Te of Piglet."
Chandra Vita: hai another good one.
Lysandra Goodnight: I've heard of those but not read them
Akasuki Aichi: I'm on the Te of Piglet at the mo :)
Suzanne Logan: Lysandra brings up a good point
Chandra Vita: Both books by Benjamin Hoff
Suzanne Logan: there is a lot of the yin and yang in this verse
Akasuki Aichi: yes
Akasuki Aichi: it sounds like I'm not taking it seriousy when I mention these books but I don't think taoism is srious or sad :)
Corwyn Allen: The Tao is both and neither
Chandra Vita smiles.
Veritas Veloce agrees with Aichi-san comments too
Chandra Vita reaches far and pokes her brother.
Akasuki Aichi: none of us can really define the tao
Chandra Vita: Or it would not be the Tao.
Corwyn Allen: The Tao that can be defined is not the true Tao
Lysandra Goodnight: The Tao is neither good nor bad... not hard nor easy... not simple or complicated... it just IS..

Suzanne Logan: 11: may be summed up in
    The importance of What is Not!

Thirty spokes share the wheel's hub
It is the center hole that makes it useful

Shape clay into a vessel
It is the space within that makes it useful

Cut doors and windows fo a room
It is the holes which make it useful

Therefore profit comes from what is there
Usefulness from what is not there

We join spokes together in a wheel,
but it is the center hole
that makes the wagon move.

We shape clay into a pot,
but it is the emptiness inside
that holds whatever we want.

We hammer wood for a house,
but it is the inner space
that makes it livable.

We work with being,
but non-being is what we use.

We join thirty spokes to the hub of a wheel,
yet it's the center hole that drives the chariot.

We shape clay to birth a vessel,
yet it's the hollow within that makes it useful.

We chisel doors and windows to construct a room,
yet it's the inner space that makes it livable.

Thus do we create what is to use what is not.

Lysandra Goodnight: wow
Suzanne Logan: Profit comes from what is there
Suzanne Logan: Usefulness from what is not there
Chandra Vita: Hai.
Suzanne Logan: a little quantum physics hidden in this verse
Corwyn Allen: As a musician I have often heard it said that music is also made up of the silences between notes.
Chandra Vita: Non-being is what we use.
Suzanne Logan: yes Allen-san
Suzanne Logan: and a great artist makes use of space
Chandra Vita: Pregnant pauses.
Lysandra Goodnight: or how volumes of wisdom are conveyed in saying nothing
Chandra Vita: Poignant silence.
Suzanne Logan: haiku...some of the best leaves that little bit on unspoken piece
Akasuki Aichi: A student of taoism loses something every day
Akasuki Aichi: on the way to wu wei
Lysandra Goodnight: reminds me of a zen statement that I myself coined years ago... "Only in Cyberspace can you "see" silence"
Veritas Veloce: Indeed.
Corwyn Allen smiles remembering that a wise man keeps silent so as not to be thought a fool while teh fool speaks and removes all doubt.

Suzanne Logan: I am reminded of a wonderful book by Margaret Wheatly
    called Leadership and the new Science
    I speak of this book from time to time
    remember that the Tao...much of it is written for the leaders
    think about this verse from a leadership perspective

Akasuki Aichi: yes

Suzanne Logan: so...
    we at Amatsu
    we spend time creating an external environment..
    I spent hours yesterday working on terraforming and building placements etc
    I will spend hours more
    but in the end
    the value will come with the art appreciation, the lecture appreciation...the change in hearts and minds as a result

Akasuki Aichi: it is very lovely I walked around yesterday
Veritas Veloce: (Your design is looking lovely Okasan!)

Suzanne Logan smiles...well.. i'm not fishing for compliments..but using it to make that point
    that it isn't the designs
    it is the gift the artists will bring

Lysandra Goodnight: ah.. like... the beauty of a work of art does not reside in the artwork itself.. but in the appreciation of each person that views it.
Suzanne Logan: yes!
Corwyn Allen: Beauty is in the eye of the beholder
Suzanne Logan thinks she could have done a better analogy
Suzanne Logan: *laughs
Suzanne Logan: i liked this verse..
Chandra Vita: Hai I also.
Suzanne Logan: if you get a chance to pick up that Wheatley book it does not disappoint
Chandra Vita:Chandra Vita: Every one is just mind-boggling.
Suzanne Logan looks at the clock
Lysandra Goodnight: hmmm I like the artist analogy...
    the artist is not thought a genius because he says he is...
    it's when the patron sees the work and says "He is a genius"
Suzanne Logan: very good Lysandra
    you have a wonderful way of summarizing... such a strong mind

Suzanne Logan smiles

Verse 6 - 8

 [7:02]  Suzanne Logan: First of all I appreciate Allen-san's help in this class today we were talking about interpretations and he has provided one by Gia Fu Feng and Jane English ISBN 0-39471833-X.

You have the other two references I believe
and Tao te Ching: A new translation & commentary by Ralph Alan Dale ISBN: 0-7607-4998-1
We will use interps today in that order....

A will be the Chinese
B will be Brooklyn
C will be Dale's - who takes a great deal of liberties

And we begin

Suzanne Logan: Last week we had a really great discussion! Do you like the format of our time together?
and if at anytime you wish a different approach you know all you need to do is ask
we are not teaching the Tao....we are exposing it to you

So now Verse Six

[7:07]  Corwyn Allen: Or exposing you to it. ;)
[7:07]  angel Scarborough smiles and is enjoying these sessions

[7:07]  Suzanne Logan: Verse Six may be summarized in "Life's Spirit"
First interpretations
The valley spirit never dies;
It is the woman, primal mother.
Her gateway is the root of heaven and earth.
It is like a veil barely seen.
Use it; it will never fail

Second interpretation
The Tao is called the Great Mother:
empty yet inexhaustible,
it gives birth to infinite worlds.
It is always present within you.
You can use it any way you want.

And finally...
The spirit of life never dies.
It is the infinite gateway to mysteries within mysteries
It is the seed of yin, the spark of yang.
Always elusive, endlessly available.


[7:10]  Chandra Vita: All of these speak to me of Creation: Seed, spark, Create, etc. The beginning.... even Mother.

[7:11]  Suzanne Logan nods and what have we established so far is the beginning..or infinite?
This would be the Tao...the Way
so... this is re-establishing how the Tao is also like the spirit of life
let us liken this to a river

[7:13]  Corwyn Allen: Not merely like, but is.
[7:13]  Suzanne Logan smiles ... well yes
[7:13]  Corwyn Allen: The Tao is the spirit of life
[7:13]  Suzanne Logan: it is
[7:13]  Corwyn Allen: and that is in all of us
[7:13]  Corwyn Allen: As we are in Tao
[7:13]  Suzanne Logan lets that sink in

[7:14]  Suzanne Logan: it gives birth the headwaters of a river high in an alpine forest... it feeds and begins the entire river
but that is not really a great analogy

[7:14]  Corwyn Allen: IT is primal. Hai
[7:14]  Suzanne Logan: The spirit of life is infinite, mysterious, inexhaustible and both passive (yin) and active (yang).
[7:15]  Corwyn Allen: Yes,
[7:15]  Corwyn Allen: Like the river, it seeks its lowest point passively
[7:15]  Corwyn Allen: And yet actively changes all around it as it passes by

[7:15]  Suzanne Logan: so this verse is really about the Tao
What about the next part of the verse?
[7:17]  Lysandra Goodnight: I think that the Tao, being infinite in the wisdom that is there to use, .. it says "use any way you wish" meaning that it touches upon all aspects of life.
[7:17]  Chandra Vita nods.
[7:17]  Suzanne Logan: exactly
[7:18]  Suzanne Logan: elusive, but must also THINK to use it
[7:18]  Suzanne Logan: and meditate on it, carrying it within
[7:18]  Suzanne Logan: yes?
[7:18]  Corwyn Allen: But one must also be careful not to think too hard upon it
[7:18]  Corwyn Allen: In meditation one should achive the state of No Mind. Zen Mind
[7:19]  Lysandra Goodnight: Hai.. one does not expet the Tao to simply give the answer.. it is a guide to finding the answer.
[7:19]  Corwyn Allen: Thinking without thinking, action without thought
[7:19]  Suzanne Logan nods
[7:19]  Suzanne Logan: ready for next verse?
[7:19]  Corwyn Allen: Hai, Okasan
[7:20]  Corwyn Allen: Dozo

[7:20]  Suzanne Logan: Verse seven may be summed up in the word "Modesty"
[7:20]  Suzanne Logan: Interpretation:
Heaven and earth last forever.
Why do heaven and earth last forever?
They are unborn,
So ever living

The sage stays behind, thus he is aheard
He is detached, thus at one with all
Through selfless action, he attains fulfillment

[7:22]  Chandra Vita: It is like a circle. No beginning no end. One who is behind is also ahead.
[7:22]  Suzanne Logan nods...

[7:22]  Suzanne Logan: Second interp
[7:22]  Suzanne Logan: The Tao is infinite, eternal
[7:22]  angel Scarborough very much likes Chandra's circle analogy
[7:22]  Suzanne Logan: Why is it eternal?
[7:22]  Lysandra Goodnight: Time is a device created by man... the Infinite has no time.. it is all things at any given moment.
[7:23]  Suzanne Logan: It was never born: thus it cannot die.
[7:23]  Suzanne Logan: Why is it infinite?
[7:23]  Suzanne Logan: It has no desires for itself; thus it is present for all beings.
[7:23]  Suzanne Logan: The Master stays behind
that is why she is ahead. She is detached from all things: that is why she is one with them.
Because she has let go of herself, she is perfectly fulfilled
Chandra Vita: Detached but not indifferent.

[7:24]  Suzanne Logan: And the final interp
The Great Integrity, having had no birth, expresses its immortality without pronouncements.
The wise are heard through their silence., always self-full through selflessness.
Now let us discuss....

So ... really the ego is at issue here
it is the very act of calling attention to ourselves that can alienate us from others
[7:26]  Lysandra Goodnight: Hai.. but not "ego" as in self pride, but ego as in a sense of one's being, an awareness of self.
[7:26]  Suzanne Logan: The alienation then prevents self and social fulfillment
[7:27]  Suzanne Logan nods

[7:27]  Suzanne Logan: Dale commentary says this...
"When we no longer have to respond to the compulsive alternating bulimic demands and anorexic sufferings of our battered egos, then we will fulfill ourselves naturally and silently just as the Tao expresses its immortality without pronouncements
[7:28]  Suzanne Logan: end
[7:28]  Chandra Vita: Oh my... such words.
[7:29]  Lysandra Goodnight bows her head in thought......
[7:29]  Suzanne Logan: they are strong ...
[7:29]  Suzanne Logan: but i think the shock value is needed for some
[7:29]  Suzanne Logan: for me
[7:29]  Suzanne Logan: it made me stop and think
[7:29]  Chandra Vita: And I also.
[7:30]  Lysandra Goodnight: that says so much about what I'm going through right now.
[7:30]  Suzanne Logan nods and looks gently in Lysandra's direction
[7:30]  angel Scarborough: One of the things that I have been learning in my own studies lately, is that we must not see our bodies/our human ego as the enemy but must lovingly accept it as part of who we are as a whole while we are on earth. Not let it control us so that we do things we regret, but also not spend so much time escaping from it that we lose sight of the fact that it is a gift from the creator for our time on earth. It is the balance that is important.
[7:32]  Suzanne Logan: that is really good point angel... *ponders her words
[7:32]  Lysandra Goodnight nods.. "Hai"
[7:32]  Suzanne Logan: there is the first interpretation I want to bring ont
[7:32]  Suzanne Logan: *out
[7:32]  Suzanne Logan: about the sage, the wise person
[7:33]  Suzanne Logan: how does he/she attain fulfillment?
[7:33]  Suzanne Logan: when we say.... i have nothing to give....
[7:33]  Suzanne Logan: how do we remedy that?
[7:34]  Corwyn Allen: One must detach from the ego.
[7:34]  Chandra Vita: There is nothing to give if we already have it.
[7:34]  Suzanne Logan nods... yes yes
[7:34]  Suzanne Logan: and the piece I am looking for is this
[7:34]  Suzanne Logan: the wise person attains fulfillment through selfless action
selfless action means loving unconditionally, giving without expecting return, etc.... you all know that drill
but doing it...sincerely in the heart is not always easy
[7:36]  Corwyn Allen: It is the point of detachment
[7:36]  Lysandra Goodnight: I think it also means that in the giving is the receiving, particularly when imparting wisdom.. the teacher learns from the teaching.
[7:36]  Corwyn Allen: One ceases to think about such things as attaining, and thus attains without striving
[7:37]  Corwyn Allen: There is an interesting correlation in one of the lines in this verse.
[7:37]  angel Scarborough: I don't think as human beings we can reach the point where we ever fully do these things without return because if we do the opposite (are cruel and selfish) and feel bad afterwards, if we are kind and generous and feel good/fulfilled afterwards, then for us there is a reward in the doing no matter how much we may wish to think otherwise.
[7:37]  angel Scarborough: (in the doing of the things that make us feel good)
[7:37]  Suzanne Logan: good point angel.. but actually...getting back is ok

[7:37]  Corwyn Allen: Does everyone hee know the difference between a Buddha and a Bodhisatva?
[7:37]  Chandra Vita: hai
[7:38]  Chandra Vita: Bodhisatvas keep coming back to help others.
[7:38]  Chandra Vita: They return on the wheel.
[7:38]  Corwyn Allen: Hai.
[7:38]  Chandra Vita: For Others.
[7:38]  Suzanne Logan: that is the fulfillment part
[7:38]  Lysandra Goodnight: Hai Allen san but I think there's more to it.. it's the idea that one never expects there to be a reward even if one knows that being selfless IS it's own reward.. that is how one has no regard for one's own desires..
[7:38]  Suzanne Logan: The Tao is not against fulfillment
[7:38]  Corwyn Allen: The Bodhisatva is one who has attained enlgihtenment...
[7:38]  Suzanne Logan: yes Lysandra
[7:38]  Corwyn Allen: but chooses to refues ascencion in orfer to teach oterhs
[7:39]  Suzanne Logan: ah... there is that too Allen-san
[7:39]  Corwyn Allen: The sage stays behind, thus he is ahead
[7:39]  Chandra Vita: Good one yes, Allen-san.
[7:39]  Corwyn Allen: The correlation to the Bodhisatva is one meaning I have personally gleaned from this
[7:39]  Lysandra Goodnight: the sage may refuse ascention... but... finds that he is buddafied at the end...

[7:39]  Corwyn Allen: We all learn different lessons in these verses.
[7:40]  Suzanne Logan: and i think my point is just plain old practicality....
[7:40]  Corwyn Allen smiles
[7:40]  angel Scarborough: That is what makes teachings like the Tao work, it can speak to each of us where we are in our personal journeys.
[7:40]  Suzanne Logan smiles
[7:40]  Suzanne Logan: if you are feeling bad about yourself, go give to someone else
[7:40]  Corwyn Allen nods
[7:41]  Lysandra Goodnight: I"m seeing that, angel san... (smiles)
[7:41]  Suzanne Logan: each one of these is so deep.. and we are rushing through them
[7:41]  angel Scarborough smiles
[7:41]  Chandra Vita: Hai, we are.
[7:41]  Suzanne Logan: perhaps...this will generate a group that will want to go deeper at some point
[7:41]  Chandra Vita: We could spend a week on only one verse.
[7:42]  Corwyn Allen: One could spend a lifetime on one verse
[7:42]  Chandra Vita: We could spend a lifetime on only one.
[7:42]  Corwyn Allen smiles at Chandra
[7:42]  Suzanne Logan: but our purpose here is mere exposure with some discussion to sort of get things percolating *smiles

[7:42]  Corwyn Allen: And we must remember....
[7:42]  Corwyn Allen: The Tao that can be spoken...
is not the true Tao

[7:43]  angel Scarborough likes the word "percolating" for these verses as that is what they seem to do, the right one seems to percolate up in our consciousness when it is applicable.
[7:43]  Chandra Vita: Hai, the perfect word.
[7:43]  Corwyn Allen: Like coffee
[7:43]  Lysandra Goodnight: true but percolating invariably ruins good coffee... : P
[7:44]  Suzanne Logan: *smiles
[7:44]  angel Scarborough chuckles
[7:44]  Corwyn Allen: LOL
[7:44]  Suzanne Logan: it is all abotu the timing
[7:44]  Suzanne Logan: timing
[7:44]  Corwyn Allen: Hai,
[7:44]  Lysandra Goodnight: Hai.. knowing when you've percolated enough
[7:45]  Suzanne Logan: speaking of....
[7:45]  Lysandra Goodnight smiles
[7:45]  Corwyn Allen thinks upon the mantra of the Bene Caffeinate
[7:45]  Lysandra Goodnight grins at Allen san
[7:45]  Suzanne Logan: yes....Allensan you may share it...*grins at him
[7:45]  Corwyn Allen: Perhpas later
[7:45]  Chandra Vita laughs.
[7:45]  Corwyn Allen: When it is more appropriate
[7:45]  Suzanne Logan: heh
[7:46]  Suzanne Logan: very well... *smiles

[7:46]  Suzanne Logan: Lets move on!
the theme is : The Highest Good
Interp one
The highest good is like water.
Water gives life to the ten thousand things and does not strive.
It flows in places men reject and so is like the Tao.
In dealing with others, be gentel and kind.
In speech, be true.
In dwelling, be close to the land.
In meditations, go deep in the heart.
In ruling, be just.
In business, be competent.
In actions, watch the timing.
No fight: No blame.

The supreme good is like water,
which nourishes all things without trying to.
It is content with the low places that people disdain.
Thus it is like the Tao.

In dwelling, live close to the ground.
In thinking, keep to the simple.
In conflict, be fair and generous.
In governing, don't try to control.
In work, do what you enjoy.
In family life, be completely present.

When you are content to be simply yourself
and don't compare or compete,
everybody will respect you.

And third
The highest good is like water, nourishing life effortlessly, flowing without prejudice to the lowliest places.
It springs from all who nourish their community with a benevolent heart as deep as an abyss, who are incapable of lies and injustices, who are rooted in the earth, and whose natural rhythms of action play midwife to the highest good of each pregnant moment.
Please discuss.

[7:48]  Chandra Vita: The water analogy / metaphor is always with us.
[7:48]  Corwyn Allen nods
[7:49]  Corwyn Allen: It is ever present in our lives
[7:49]  Chandra Vita: and water too percolates, angel.
[7:49]  Corwyn Allen: We can not live in it
[7:49]  Corwyn Allen: We can not live without it
[7:49]  Corwyn Allen: We are made mostly of it
[7:49]  Chandra Vita smiles.
[7:50]  Corwyn Allen: Water achievs much without striving to do so
[7:50]  Corwyn Allen: It is both passive and active
[7:50]  Lysandra Goodnight: Hmm or perhaps... If you look at the river and focus on a bit of water.. it moves on and is gone.... lost in the greater whole.. And what replaces it? More watrer.. the river simply IS.. like the infinite.. it is itself at all times.
[7:50]  Chandra Vita: It always seeks its own level.
[7:51]  Corwyn Allen: Hai Lysandra
[7:51]  Corwyn Allen: As we must be ourselves at all times
[7:51]  Corwyn Allen: Infinite
[7:52]  Lysandra Goodnight: Perhaps the goal of reaching wisdom is to come to that total awareness of self.. to see one's infinite being in it's entirety... then one sees all things.. knows all things.. IS all things.
[7:52]  angel Scarborough: I have little to say on this one other than I very much like the thought that both the Tao and water simply by existing bring good to others. Although, as we recently saw in TX, too much water can bring harm - so I think we are back to balance and moderation again even with that which may be good.
[7:52]  Corwyn Allen smiles at Angel.
[7:52]  Corwyn Allen: It is the substance of the symbol for Yin and Yang
[7:53]  Corwyn Allen: Balance
[7:53]  Lysandra Goodnight: Do you think that what is 'good' is a relative term, angel? That it is interpreted on an individual basis?
[7:53]  Corwyn Allen: Too much or too little can cause great harm
[7:53]  Chandra Vita nods.
[7:53]  Chandra Vita: I think so Lysandra.
[7:54]  Chandra Vita: Sometimes it is the comnparison of the two that gets us into trouble.
[7:54]  Lysandra Goodnight: Hmm Interesting Allen san.. I'm reminded of a dam... it holds back the river.. yet still allows it to flow otherwise the flood would be devastating to the surroundings.
[7:54]  Corwyn Allen: I once had a college professor who told me, "All things in moderation, including moderation."
[7:54]  angel Scarborough: oh, Lysandra, now that is a question like the Tao, one which has many levels. On the face of it, it might seem evident what is good and what is not - such as that which causes harm is not good but it is like a story that I will quickly see if I can find to copy and paste.
[7:55]  Lysandra Goodnight nods
[7:55]  Lysandra Goodnight: In an earlier class I was minded of another work of philosophy... the Meditations of Marcus Aurelius... the father of Stoicism.. and in it he wrote.....
[7:55]  Lysandra Goodnight: "Do the right thing.. NOT because society says it is... but simply because it is the right thing to do."
[7:56]  Corwyn Allen smiles
[7:56]  Corwyn Allen: Yes, and we must not be afraid to do the right thing even in the face of censure by others

[7:56]  angel Scarborough:
The Chinese tell the story of an old man who owned a bony plow horse. One spring afternoon the horse ran away. The old man’s friends, trying to console him, said, “We’re so sorry about your horse, old man. What a misfortune you’ve had.” But the old man said, “Bad news, good news-who knows?”

A few days later the horse returned home leading a herd of wild horses. Again the friends came running. Filled with jubilation, they cried, “How wonderful!” But the old man whispered, “Good news, bad news-who knows?”

Then the next day, when the farmer’s son was trying to ride one of the new horses, the young man was thrown to the ground and broke both legs. The friends gasped. The old man stood still and said, “Bad news, good news-who knows?”

And a short time later when the village went to war and all the young men were drafted to fight, the farmer’s son was excused because of two broken legs. Good news. Bad news. Who knows?

[7:58]  Lysandra Goodnight: hai, angel.. very true
[7:58]  Suzanne Logan: thank you *smiles
[7:58]  Lysandra Goodnight: sometimes a thing is not 'good' or 'bad'.. it simply IS
[7:59]  Lysandra Goodnight: what the receiver gets from it may determine it's worth
[7:59]  angel Scarborough smiles and nods
[7:59]  Lysandra Goodnight: A hammer is not an evil thing.. yet it can be used to kill or to build...
[7:59]  Lysandra Goodnight: it's the hand that wields it that determines it's good or evil
[8:00]  angel Scarborough: It is also how we react to what is, that matters. Often we cannot change what occurs, but we can stop and think before we react and in doing so keep from making a bad situation worse, and perhaps even making it better.
[8:00]  Chandra Vita: Hai, Angel it is one of my favorite stories.
[8:01]  Corwyn Allen: Like the old saw about making lemonade when life hands you lemons
[8:02]  angel Scarborough smiles
[8:02]  Lysandra Goodnight: and then find someone to whom life has given them vodka.... and have a party
[8:02]  Suzanne Logan: such good discussion...!
[8:02]  Suzanne Logan looks at the clock
[8:02]  Suzanne Logan: our time is up
[8:02]  Corwyn Allen grins
[8:02]  Lysandra Goodnight: that was a fast hour hehehe
[8:03]  Corwyn Allen: And the first line of the next verse is appropriate to us running out of time
[8:03]  Lysandra Goodnight: I have gained much from todays lesson
[8:04]  Suzanne Logan: Next week we will attempt 9 - 13.

Verse Two through Five

Okasan: alright lets begin
[7:10]  Veritas Veloce: i've noticed that different version have different verse numbers...
[7:10]  Okasan: I will discuss interpretations
[7:10]  Okasan: since you have brought that up...
[7:10]  Chandra Vita listens carefully.
[7:10]  Veritas Veloce: no .. i meant the verse numbering itself

[7:10]  Okasan: well... we cannnot really help that nor can we help that there are different interpretations that is why it is best if we use for class the same one.... want to use an adjunct to help clarify what they read of course they may the one I have posted for us to use is admittedly not the best! but then who is to say what is the best?

It is a frame of reference only.

For example I have two interpretations of the second verse before me and we will look at them both
Verse two can really be summed up in the term "relativity"
It is written in antithesis so lets look at it togehter shall we?
When people see some things as beautiful, other things become ugly. When people see some things as good, other things become bad.
Being and non-being create each other.
Difficult and easy support each other.
Long and short define each other.
High and low depend on each other.
Before and after follow each other.

Therefore the Master acts without doing anything and teaches without saying anything.
Things arise and she lets them come; things disappear and she lets them go.
She has but doesn't possess, acts but doesn't expect.
When her work is done, she forgets it. That is why it lasts forever.

Now compare that with this interpretation:
We know beauty because there is ugly. We know good because there is evil. Being and no being, having and not having create each other.
Difficult and easy, long and short, high and low, define each other, just as before and after follow each other.
The dialectic of sound gives voice to music, always transforming "is" from "was" as the ancestors of "to be".
The wise teach without telling, allow without commanding, have without possessing, care without claiming.
In this way we harvest eternal importance because we never announce it.
See how different?

[7:17]  Chandra Vita: Hai.
[7:17]  Okasan: and yet the same
[7:17]  Chandra Vita: More antithesis.

[7:18]  Okasan: There are different interpretations of the Bible as well...and books that have them all side by side for comparison
I think that looking at the different interpretations can actually bring us to the full intent
so I would encourage you to seek that out
The word Antithesis is derived from the Greek for "setting opposite".
It involves the creation of counter-propositions and expresses a direct contrast to the original proposition.
The antithesis arises with the turn of the phrase. So the second verse uses "opposites" to make a strong point.
That point being...when we establish an opinion as to a certain thing, it immediately closes our mind to the opposite...which in fact may be apparent or hidden.

[7:19]  Veritas Veloce: there is a definite different 'feeling' between the 2
[7:19]  Okasan: But to close our mind at all to the "whole" of something is to limit our ability to see.
[7:21]  angel Scarborough: It seemed to me that the first one was saying what you said, Suz, with if we see one we close our mind to another (re: beauty and ugly), I got something different from the second one. I think in many ways, I prefer the first one.
[7:21]  Okasan: as do I angel
[7:21]  Okasan: to me the first one is more clear and probably closer to the original intent
[7:21]  Okasan: which is to help us see that to choose
[7:21]  Chandra Vita: I think for many, the text suggests that we may miss the other side of a proposition but it fact I think that what the author means is that as Okasan suggests it is the Whole that is important.
[7:22]  Okasan: hai...
[7:22]  Okasan: there is a saying
[7:22]  Okasan: "a Man (or Woman) convinced against their will is of their own opinion still."
[7:22]  angel Scarborough nods
[7:22]  Okasan: this is not something...(the Tao) that can be taught
[7:22]  Veritas Veloce: i was remined of something a teacher had said previously....
[7:22]  Chandra Vita smiles.
[7:22]  Okasan listens
[7:23]  Veritas Veloce: For every ripple of disharmony...look within it to see what it reflects of you
[7:23]  angel Scarborough smiles at Veritas' words
[7:23]  Okasan: yes a good point... to have that self reflection
[7:23]  Chandra Vita nods.
[7:23]  Chandra Vita: That is really the only place where discrimiation exists.
[7:24]  Veritas Veloce: so//sometime the "them" that is the irritant...... is actuaally "me" dealing with something
[7:24]  Okasan nods at Chandra's words
[7:24]  Okasan: right Veritas...
[7:24]  Okasan: and to think wholistically... helps us to see everyone's perspective
[7:25]  Okasan: if we do not... we miss out
[7:25]  Veritas Veloce: and that there are + and-, black and white, in every the etxt suggests
[7:25]  angel Scarborough: yes, to focus more on understanding others, rather than just to be understood ourselves.
[7:25]  Okasan: exactly, angel!
[7:25]  Okasan: so now lets look at the second part of the vers
[7:25]  Okasan: who is *the Master*?
[7:26]  Chandra Vita: we.
[7:26]  Okasan: hai
[7:26]  Okasan: the Master is the one who has "mastered" the above concepts
[7:26]  angel Scarborough: the one who lives what is being taught
[7:26]  Okasan: hai
[7:26]  Chandra Vita nods.
[7:27]  Okasan: so if we understand the antithesis of these things, we realize that to force our point, our opinion on ANYTHING is fairly fruitless, does not help the other and really is fairly codependent
[7:27]  Okasan: we learn to "let it go"
[7:27]  Okasan: oh it is not saying never have an opinion!
[7:27]  Okasan: but to know when to let it go
[7:28]  Chandra Vita: and to know it is only an opinion.
[7:28]  Okasan: usually prior to when an issue becomes painful or stickery
[7:28]  Okasan nods
7:28]  Okasan: so I have an example and perhaps you do as well.
we provide instruction to our students and when the students wish to put something toghether, we can watch them very closely... repeating and repeating what we have already discussed
we can let them do as they would like - and if some things get missed - we simply allow it to happen
now there are problems with that approach
Donation signs might not be placed, advertising may not be done, people might wear wrong kimono etc
but the lesson will be learned better...

[7:31]  Chandra Vita: We never learn so well as when we do things incorrectly.
[7:31]  Veritas Veloce smiles
[7:31]  Okasan nods
[7:31]  Okasan: it is hard not to take the control though in those times very very very hard
[7:32]  Okasan winks at Veritas
[7:32]  Chandra Vita: lol.
[7:32]  Okasan: so... any other thoughts with this verse?
[7:32]  Chandra Vita raises her hand.
[7:33]  Okasan: hai Chandra?
[7:33]  angel Scarborough: there is so much in this verse, that whole books have been written on it.
[7:33]  Chandra Vita: For me one of the most important lessons is that we do without expecting anything out of it.
[7:34]  Chandra Vita: That part of the Tao has brought me such peace and joy.
[7:34]  angel Scarborough: and for things to arise and be let go is both the essence of how one meditates, and of mindfulness - living in the moment, not in the past or in worries of or hopes for the future, but being in the only time that really exists - the now. And that is just one part of this verse.
[7:35]  Okasan: yes! good points!
[7:35]  Chandra Vita: Exactly.
[7:35]  Veritas Veloce: and being in NOW is difficult..requires work!
[7:35]  angel Scarborough smiles at Veritas and admits that is one she works at regularly.
[7:35]  Chandra Vita: The hardest.
[7:35]  Okasan: yes...
[7:36]  Okasan: and I agree Chandra... the line that yells at me is
[7:36]  Okasan: When her work is done, she forgets it.
[7:36]  Chandra Vita: hai
[7:37]  angel Scarborough: another for me that very much speaks to me in here is "She has but doesn't possess" in addition to the on the Suz just quoted, which is another that I also work hard at.
[7:37]  angel Scarborough: *one
[7:37]  Okasan: yes.... absolutely..
[7:37]  Okasan: and you see why the Tao cannot be taught
[7:37]  Chandra Vita: Hai and I also have to work hard.
[7:37]  Okasan: it is fresh each time and meaningful in personal ways
[7:37]  Okasan: as we go from revelation to revelation

[7:38]  Okasan: and now.. let's move to the third verse
[7:38]  Okasan: This verse can be summed up in the word "Tempering"
[7:38]  Okasan: If you overesteem great men,
people become powerless.
If you overvalue possessions,
people begin to steal.
The Master leads
by emptying people's minds
and filling their cores,
by weakening their ambition
and toughening their resolve.
He helps people lose everything
they know, everything they desire,
and creates confusion
in those who think that they know.

[7:39]  Okasan: Practice not-doing,
and everything will fall into place.
and the other interpretation is:
Overpraising the gifted leads to contentiousness
Overvaluing the precious invites stealing
Craving the desirable loses contentment.

[7:40]  Veritas Veloce: well and sometimes.. that also causes others not to try
[7:40]  Veritas Veloce: (sorry)
[7:40]  Okasan: The natural person desires without craving and acts without excess
By not doing, everything is done
Well the key thought here is in "excess"
remember the Tao is about moderation
so it is not saying "don't praise" but rather don't do it effusively
be sincere

[7:42]  Veritas Veloce: sometimes ive observed... that when too much is said or done..others shy away from trying...

[7:42]  Okasan: yes....
[7:42]  Chandra Vita: hai, good point.
[7:42]  Okasan: this is why I think we need to "share the blessings"
what do I mean by that?
Think of a basketball team
What happens if one person "hogs the ball"?
it weakens the rest of the team
[7:43]  Okasan: right?
[and soon the person who "hogs the ball" becomes tired and the whole team collapses, loses, is wiped out
[it is not the formula for longevity *smiles
but if the work is shared, they enjoy the spoils together
sharing the blessings
you see... this verse is saying that
Excess is rooted in deprivation.

For instance, when our talents are not appreciated, we may over-indulge in "fishing for compliments". When our spiritual, physical, emotional needs are underserved, we develop desperate cravings because we are starved.
Freedom from deprivation allows us to function effortlessly.
so what does the Master of this principle do?
I am seeing that she keeps those around her a little "hungry"

[7:46]  Veritas Veloce: love thyself

[7:47]  Okasan: by not over indulging them
A compliment giving in sincerity is filling and meaty
but compliments upon compliments begin to sour in the stomach
other thoughts? or ready to move on?

Let us continue then
Verse 4 is about The Great Integrity or more on The Way itself
The student asked the Master
What is the Tao like?
and the Master said,
The Tao is like a well:
used but never used up.
It is like the eternal void:
filled with infinite possibilities.
It is hidden but always present.
I don't know who gave birth to it.
It is older than God.

Another interpretation is:
The great integrity is an endless abyss
Yet, it is the inexhastibly fertil source of the universe
It blunts all sharpness, unties the entangled, and merges with the dust!
Hidden but ever present---this parent of the gods-- whose child may it be?

The last part of this is and epistemological question
Epistemology (from Greek åðéóôÞìç - episteme, "knowledge" + ëüãïò, "logos") or theory of knowledge is a branch of philosophy concerned with the nature and scope of knowledge.
Epistemology primarily addresses the following questions: "What is knowledge?", "How is knowledge acquired?", "What do people know?", "How do we know what we know?"
Lao Tzu is stating that The Tao is older than God...who by definition is infinite.
Therefore I'm inclined to think something has been lost in the translation.
But the concept is this: The Tao or principle of the Tao is timeless.
It is not new knowledge and it will never be "old knowledge". It just *is*.
It exists beyond the finite limitations of our perceptions and lives in infinite time, space, energy and matter. IN the same realm as an infinite God.

Comments? Experiences?
[7:54]  Chandra Vita: For me, when one speaks of the universality of God, it helps me to apprecitate my own devinity.... the God within Me.
[7:55]  angel Scarborough is simply thinking about all of this, the "older than God" comment was one that I had decided to not even try to understand but I like the way you explained that, Suz.
[7:55]  Veritas Veloce: Angel... that is a nice way to look at it...Thank you
[7:56]  Okasan smiles...
[7:56]  angel Scarborough points to Suz, the did the explaining. I only learned. *smiles*
[7:56]  angel Scarborough: *she did
[7:56]  Okasan: yes.. i think something lost in translation *laughs
[7:56]  Chandra Vita smiles.
[7:56]  Okasan: something cannot be older than infinite
[7:56]  Okasan: but remember the first lesson?
[7:57]  Okasan: how it was "tied" in a way as part of world's wisdom...some similarities in a way to Christ
[7:57]  Chandra Vita: hai
[7:58]  angel Scarborough has a thought but is not quite sure if this will make sense - perhaps the Tao formed the material, was part of the material that God used as a basis for creation.
[7:58]  Okasan: which if one is of the Christian background, one sees Christ ultimately as a part of the Godhead and therefore infinite
[7:58]  angel Scarborough: And that is why it "rings true" for us.
[7:58]  Okasan nods... a part of the principle I think
[7:58]  Okasan: the concepts are rational... and timeless...
[7:58]  Okasan smiles.. there are many ways to "churn" this aren't there?
[7:59]  Chandra Vita: hai
[7:59]  Chandra Vita: many and only one... hee hee
[7:59]  Okasan: our time is growings short... we wanted to finish one more verse
[7:59]  Okasan: hai Chandra...many and one...well said
[7:59]  angel Scarborough smiles as "churn" is a very good way to describe the effect this verse has on her mind.
[7:59]  Okasan: *giggles

[7:59]  Okasan: So Verse 5
can be summed up in Yin and Yang
The Tao doesn't take sides;
it gives birth to both good and evil.
The Master doesn't take sides;
she welcomes both saints and sinners.
The Tao is like a bellows:
it is empty yet infinitely capable.
The more you use it, the more it produces;
the more you talk of it, the less you understand.
Hold on to the center.
Put aside your opinions and one with the ebb and flow of the Tao... of life
and another interpretation is>..
Yin and yang aren't sentimental
They exist without moralizing.
They act regardless of our wishes within the ebb and flow of every pregnant moment.
The space between yin and yang is like a bellows
The more it yields, the more it fills
empty, yet infinitely full
Countless words count less than the silent balance between yin and yang

What are your thoughts on this verse?
[8:03]  angel Scarborough: "the more you talk of it, the less you understand" is intriguing.
[8:04]  Veritas Veloce: Please excuse me... i must leave..Thank you for the wonderful lesson again Okasan
[8:04]  angel Scarborough: Farewell, Veritas.
[8:04]  Veritas Veloce: Lovely to see you Chandra and Angel
[8:04]  Veritas Veloce smoothes the silk of her kimono as she stands
[8:04]  Chandra Vita: Hai, adomo sister and you also.
[8:04]  angel Scarborough: Thank you, Veritas
[8:04]  Veritas Veloce takes a humble bow and smiles
[8:04]  Chandra Vita makes a humble bow
[8:05]  Okasan bows to honor you
[8:05]  Okasan: thank you for coming!
[8:05]  Veritas Veloce is Offline
[8:06]  Okasan looks at the other two
[8:06]  Chandra Vita: Thank you Okasan.
[8:06]  angel Scarborough hops off the table
[8:06]  Okasan: is there more discussion on this you would like to have? or are we finished for the day?
[8:06]  Okasan smiles
[8:06]  Chandra Vita: My whole week revolves around Sunday mornings.
[8:06]  Okasan: i love it as well. . .
[8:07]  angel Scarborough: I am not sure this last verse is not one that needs to be mostly intuitive.
[8:07]  Okasan: I am hoping I can lead again next week... but it will depend if I can find someone to tend my mother in rl
[8:07]  Okasan: yes I agree angel..
[8:07]  Okasan: i think the one thing i wanted to mention was about the bellows
[8:08]  angel Scarborough listens
[8:08]  Chandra Vita listens carefully.
[8:08]  Okasan: a bellows is by itself and inert object
[8:08]  Okasan: it can do nothing but lay on the hearth
[8:08]  Okasan: it is flat and empty
[8:08]  Okasan: it takes *someone* to pick it up, pull the handles apart and by so doing FILL IT
[8:09]  Okasan: with something as empty and powerful and simple as *air*
[8:09]  Okasan: now the bellows are full
[8:09]  Okasan: at a little spark
[8:09]  Okasan: and the person *directs* them
[8:09]  Okasan: the person also controls the exhale of the air
[8:10]  Okasan: too strong and the spark is puffed out
[8:10]  Okasan: too weak and the flame will not catch as desired
[8:10]  Okasan: you see?
[8:10]  Okasan: is not just the bellows
[8:10]  Chandra Vita: always about the middle.
[8:10]  Chandra Vita: Moderation.
[8:10]  Okasan: but the complexity and pairing of the principles of yin and yang that achieves the desired result
[8:11]  Okasan: *smiles
[8:11]  Okasan: and i will leave you with that thought
[8:11]  angel Scarborough considers this and smiles.
[8:11]  angel Scarborough: Suz, are there verses you would like us to have read for the next class (whenever that may be)?
[8:12]  Okasan: hai the next would be 6 - 10

Introduction and Verse One

 Okasan: My texts for this subject include the Tao te Ching from the online version... found at

Okasan: that is just the basic interpretation...without any discussion notes
Okasan: basic
Okasan: Christ the Eternal Tao by Hieromonk Damascene
Okasan: Tao Te Ching translated by Ralph Alan Dale
Okasan: The Tao of Inner Peace by Diane Dreher
Veritas Veloce thinks you have many texts!
Kaeko Freenote: LOL!!
Okasan smiles...
Okasan: there are so many - i'd like more!!
Corwyn Allen: But the Tao that can be read....
Okasan: The Tao Te Ching was written more than 25 centuries ago in China by Lao Tzu
Chandra Vita They are all very different but still the same.
Kaeko Freenote: Is not the Tao...
Okasan: hai
Okasan: remember Genji?
[2008/09/07 7:12]  Chandra Vita Genji who?
[2008/09/07 7:12]  Okasan: how long ago was it written?
[2008/09/07 7:12]  Kaeko Freenote cringes.
[2008/09/07 7:12]  Okasan: *laughs
[2008/09/07 7:12]  Chandra Vita: 1000 ad
[2008/09/07 7:12]  Corwyn Allen fingers his sword
[2008/09/07 7:12]  Okasan: hai... and this work predates that by far!!
[2008/09/07 7:12]  Chandra Vita: 500 BC
[2008/09/07 7:12]  Okasan: and yet it remains fresh every time you read it
[2008/09/07 7:12]  Okasan: you will see
[2008/09/07 7:13]  Okasan: Originally intended as a handbook for leaders, it taught that to lead wisely meant to live wisely in personal balance and integration with the natural cycles of life.
[2008/09/07 7:13]  Okasan: The Tao teaches that our inner personal work influences our actions which can have far-reaching consequences.
[2008/09/07 7:13]  Corwyn Allen: And Socrates was younger
[2008/09/07 7:13]  Okasan: Therefore if we cultivate a philosophy that promotes peaceful integration with the natural ebb and flow of the changing tides of circumstances around us, we will act more effectively with others and in our environment.
[2008/09/07 7:13]  Okasan: The Tao teaches patience, precision, and timing.
[2008/09/07 7:14]  Okasan: Detaching from problems, we discover solutions. We learn to stop resisting and flow with the natural patterns to bring greater joy and harmony to our lives.
[2008/09/07 7:14]  Okasan: have any of you read the poem at the landing.... "Flow"?
[2008/09/07 7:14]  Corwyn Allen nods
[2008/09/07 7:14]  Kaeko Freenote nods.
[2008/09/07 7:14]  Veritas Veloce: hai..its lovely.
[2008/09/07 7:14]  Lysandra Goodnight nods
[2008/09/07 7:14]  Kaeko Freenote: Hai, Okasan.
[2008/09/07 7:14]  Chandra Vita nods.
[2008/09/07 7:15]  Okasan: after class today, I would encourage you to go and re-read it...
[2008/09/07 7:15]  Okasan: *smiles
[2008/09/07 7:15]  Okasan: Outward action begins with inward understanding.
[2008/09/07 7:15]  Okasan: If we honor the overall rhythms of nature we will bring greater peace to ourselves and those around us.
[2008/09/07 7:16]  Okasan: Now saying all that... let's just talk about the title of this work ... the title is not idly created but puts the entire work into a nugget that helps us understand something about it
[2008/09/07 7:16]  Okasan: TAO means "the way" -
[2008/09/07 7:16]  Okasan: it is a path, a principle of order.
[2008/09/07 7:16]  Okasan: .the Chinese symbol for tao combines a head representing wisdom and the symbol for walking. ... so walking the path of wisdom.
[2008/09/07 7:17]  Okasan: TE means virtue or character.
[2008/09/07 7:17]  Okasan: Its Chinese symbol combines the signs for "to go", "straight", and "the heart".
[2008/09/07 7:17]  Okasan: So rising above inner conflict, the te means to live authentically according to our true character.
[2008/09/07 7:17]  Okasan: With the wisdom of Te we combine intuition with compassion....our actions are synchronized with our deepest feelings.
[2008/09/07 7:17]  Okasan: Ching means a sacred book.
[2008/09/07 7:18]  Okasan: The Tao te Ching is the sacred book of the path that leads straight from the heart.
[2008/09/07 7:18]  Okasan: we all have something called "intuition"
[2008/09/07 7:18]  Okasan: it is a thing that when it is operating ... we would say...
[2008/09/07 7:19]  Okasan: i really don't understand this.... I just KNOW that I KNOW
[2008/09/07 7:19]  Okasan: it is a right brained activity
[2008/09/07 7:19]  Okasan: and one we can cultivate...
[2008/09/07 7:19]  Chandra Vita thinks that we must be gentle to open to receive intuition.
[2008/09/07 7:19]  Okasan: much of the Tao... cannot be explained...or put into words... we just KNOW
[2008/09/07 7:19]  Okasan glances up and smiles to Trotter-san
[2008/09/07 7:19]  Okasan bows to honor you
[2008/09/07 7:20]  Okasan: welcome!
[2008/09/07 7:20]  Clintovius Trotter bows respectfully
[2008/09/07 7:20]  Corwyn Allen: Konichiwa Trotter-san
[2008/09/07 7:20]  Corwyn Allen bows respectfully
[2008/09/07 7:20]  Chandra Vita bows to honor Trotter-san.
[2008/09/07 7:20]  Okasan: perhaps Hogosha will help you with a place to be comfortable *smiles
[2008/09/07 7:20]  Corwyn Allen: Hai, let me rez a cushion
[2008/09/07 7:20]  Okasan: we are just beginning the introduction.. so happy to have you here with us!
[2008/09/07 7:21]  Okasan continues
[2008/09/07 7:21]  Clintovius Trotter: soo sorry to be late
[2008/09/07 7:21]  Okasan: The Tao is a lifelong path.
[2008/09/07 7:21]  Corwyn Allen: Trotter-san, please sit here
[2008/09/07 7:21]  Corwyn Allen: Nect to me
[2008/09/07 7:21]  Okasan: To read the Tao, think of it as a mouth watering tasty meal.
[2008/09/07 7:21]  Corwyn Allen: Next
[2008/09/07 7:21]  Okasan: Each morsel so delectable that once you place it upon your tongue, your eyes close and you want to be alone with the experience, savoring every flavor and sensation
[2008/09/07 7:22]  Okasan: So read it slowly. Meditate on the words. Take them in through reflection and meditation.
[2008/09/07 7:22]  Okasan: It will change the way you think and the way you perceive yourself and others in the changing world.
[2008/09/07 7:22]  Okasan: That concludes my introduction... before we go into the first verse of the Tao...are there any comments?
[2008/09/07 7:22]  Clintovius Trotter: I'msorry Corwyn - I don't see you lol
[2008/09/07 7:22]  Corwyn Allen: Back here by the stairs
[2008/09/07 7:23]  Corwyn Allen: I have a cushion for you
[2008/09/07 7:23]  Okasan: Chandra mentioned being in a quiet place
[2008/09/07 7:23]  Clintovius Trotter: arigato
[2008/09/07 7:23]  Corwyn Allen: do itashimashite
[2008/09/07 7:23]  Theresa Mayako: Would you please excuse me. It's getting late. I must go. Thank you for inviting me here today.
[2008/09/07 7:23]  Chandra Vita: hai, a place of gentleness and subtlety.
[2008/09/07 7:24]  Okasan: hai thank you Theresa... wonderful to see you again...
[2008/09/07 7:24]  Okasan: please let me know if you would like to be added back to okiya now?
[2008/09/07 7:24]  Okasan bows to honor you
[2008/09/07 7:25]  Theresa Mayako: Thank you. It was nice to see you Okasan... and see you all.
[2008/09/07 7:25]  Chandra Vita bows.
[2008/09/07 7:25]  Okasan smiles softly happy to see her again
[2008/09/07 7:25]  Veritas Veloce: Take care Theresa... so wonderful to see you!
[2008/09/07 7:26]  Okasan: well maybe she will get back to me...
[2008/09/07 7:26]  Okasan: has been many months!
[2008/09/07 7:26]  Okasan: so any comments?
[2008/09/07 7:26]  Okasan: no? then we shall continue
[2008/09/07 7:26]  Kaeko Freenote: I find the Tao to be something sneaking....
[2008/09/07 7:26]  Okasan: sneaking?
[2008/09/07 7:27]  Kaeko Freenote: I read it. I take what I can. Then later, I am living my life and something happens and I think....OH!
[2008/09/07 7:27]  Corwyn Allen looks around fo Lydia
[2008/09/07 7:27]  Okasan: ah!
[2008/09/07 7:27]  Kaeko Freenote: This is the moment that I read that for.
[2008/09/07 7:27]  Okasan: yes... you are right... it filters in does it not?
[2008/09/07 7:27]  Okasan nods
[2008/09/07 7:27]  Kaeko Freenote: And then other portions seem to be a mantra....something to remember with every breath.
[2008/09/07 7:27]  Kaeko Freenote: Hai, filters...yes, Okasan, exactly!
[2008/09/07 7:28]  Okasan smiles... well lets begin with that first verse then
[2008/09/07 7:28]  Corwyn Allen: Like turning on a light in a dark room
[2008/09/07 7:28]  Kaeko Freenote nods at Allen-san.
[2008/09/07 7:28]  Corwyn Allen: Suddenly it's clear
[2008/09/07 7:28]  angel Scarborough listens quietly, glad that she is here to learn.
[2008/09/07 7:28]  Chandra Vita nods.
[2008/09/07 7:28]  Okasan: VERSE ONE
[2008/09/07 7:28]  Okasan: The Tao that can be told
is not the eternal Tao
The name that can be named
is not the eternal Name.
[2008/09/07 7:28]  Okasan: The unnamable is the eternally real.
Naming is the origin
of all particular things.
[2008/09/07 7:28]  Okasan: Free from desire, you realize the mystery.
Caught in desire, you see only the manifestations.
[2008/09/07 7:29]  Okasan: Yet mystery and manifestations
arise from the same source.
This source is called darkness.
[2008/09/07 7:29]  Okasan: Darkness within darkness.
The gateway to all understanding
[2008/09/07 7:29]  Chandra Vita: The source is called Darkness because we cannot perceive it with our senses
[2008/09/07 7:29]  Okasan: now as you read this and the other verses you will see a pattern.....
[2008/09/07 7:29]  Kaeko Freenote: Oh, hai, I wondered about that!
[2008/09/07 7:29]  Okasan: hai...darkness here means a void...
[2008/09/07 7:30]  Okasan: like
[2008/09/07 7:30]  Okasan: the creation story in the Bible
[2008/09/07 7:30]  Okasan: in the beginning the earth was without form and void and darkness covered the face of the deep
[2008/09/07 7:30]  Okasan: it is not empty per se.....we just cannot perceive it
[2008/09/07 7:30]  Kaeko Freenote nods.
[2008/09/07 7:30]  Okasan: entirely
[2008/09/07 7:31]  Chandra Vita: hai Nothing in fact is Everything.
[2008/09/07 7:31]  Okasan: the pattern in the writing that you will the opposites..
[2008/09/07 7:31]  Okasan: like in this part
[2008/09/07 7:31]  Okasan: Free from desire, you realize the mystery.
Caught in desire, you see only the manifestations.
[2008/09/07 7:31]  Okasan: Lao Tzu uses that technique alot
[2008/09/07 7:32]  Okasan: so watch for that... because seeing the opposites brings you to the wisdom
[2008/09/07 7:32]  Kaeko Freenote quietly excuses herself.
[2008/09/07 7:32]  Lysandra Goodnight: Like to truly know a thing you must examine it from all sides
[2008/09/07 7:33]  Okasan: exactly Lysandra
[2008/09/07 7:33]  Corwyn Allen: OR become the thing
[2008/09/07 7:33]  Chandra Vita nods.
[2008/09/07 7:33]  Corwyn Allen: Walk a mile in someone's shoes as it were
[2008/09/07 7:33]  Okasan nods.. this is a work that you absorb so it can absorb you
[2008/09/07 7:33]  Okasan: so lets break this down a bit
[2008/09/07 7:34]  Okasan: the very first section you will hear oft repeated
[2008/09/07 7:34]  Kaeko Freenote is Offline
[2008/09/07 7:34]  Okasan: The Tao that can be told
is not the eternal Tao
The name that can be named
is not the eternal Name.
[2008/09/07 7:34]  Okasan: In the middle of the 6th Century B.C., one of the first Greek philosophers was born named Heraclitus
[2008/09/07 7:34]  Okasan: He based his philosophy on the "Logos" -- a word which itself means "Word" but has the connotations of measure, proportion and pattern
[2008/09/07 7:34]  Okasan: According to one textbook of Greek philosophy the Logos "is the first principle of knowledge:
[2008/09/07 7:35]  Okasan: understanding of the world involves understanding of the structure or pattern of the world, a pattern concealed from the eyes of ordinary men.
[2008/09/07 7:35]  Okasan: The Logos is also the first principle of existence, that unity of teh world process which sustains it as a process.
[2008/09/07 7:35]  Okasan: This unity lies beneath the surface, for it is a unity of diverse and conflicting opposites, in whose strife the Logos maintains a continual balance..
[2008/09/07 7:36]  Okasan: The Logos maintains the equilibrium of the universe at every moment." Reginald E. Allen, ed., Greek Philosophy: Thales to Aristotle, pp. 9-10.
[2008/09/07 7:36]  Okasan: At about the same time that Heraclitus lived in Greece, there lived in China the philosopher Lao Tzu ("old master").
[2008/09/07 7:36]  Okasan: He wrote of the same universal pattern or ordering principle that Heraclitus styled the Logos....
[2008/09/07 7:36]  Okasan: "I do not know its name," he said, "but characterize it as the Way (Tao)".
[2008/09/07 7:36]  Okasan: For Lao Tzu, in its full metaphysical sense, the Tao was the Way, Path, or Pattern of Heaven, the Course that all things follow.
[2008/09/07 7:37]  Okasan: The Way is the Uncreated Cause of all things. It is the Way that creates, and it is the Way that "nourishes, develops, cares for, shelters, comforts, and protects" the creation, balancing the strife of opposites by itself not contending." Hieromonk Damascene, Christ the Eternal Tao
[2008/09/07 7:37]  Okasan: What is interesting is that the philosophy was taking form in such far away locations... saying similar things...just calling it differently.
[2008/09/07 7:37]  Okasan: And 6 centuries later on the island of Patmos, an old white-haired hemit named John wrote,
[2008/09/07 7:37]  Okasan: "In the beginning was the Word (Logos) and the Word was with God and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by Him and without Him was not anything made that was made.
[2008/09/07 7:38]  Okasan: In Him was life and the life was the light of men. And the light shines in darkness, and the darkness comprehended it not...
[2008/09/07 7:38]  Okasan: He was in the world, and the world was made by Him and the world knew Him not.. and the Word became flesh and dwelt among us and we beheld His glory.
[2008/09/07 7:38]  Okasan: The Word, the Way, the Tao... In Judaism.. they say Yahweh...but agree that really there is no name that truly fits the creator.
[2008/09/07 7:38]  Okasan: The Tao that can be told
is not the eternal Tao
The name that can be named
is not the eternal Name.
[2008/09/07 7:39]  Veritas Veloce listens..absorbing ... the meanings and suggestions
[2008/09/07 7:39]  Okasan: it is almost as if the world was being prepared ....
[2008/09/07 7:39]  Okasan: for the beginning of something or someone that would come in....and leave it not the same as it ws before
[2008/09/07 7:40]  Okasan smiles softly... this is why with my Judeo Christian background... i find the Tao speaking to me
[2008/09/07 7:40]  Chandra Vita: Truth is Universal.
[2008/09/07 7:40]  Okasan: The Tao is the Way....Jesus said I am the Way the Truth and the Life...
[2008/09/07 7:40]  Okasan: so ... these are some patterns... that we might just be aware of as we read this...
[2008/09/07 7:41]  Okasan: Truth is Truth...whether we choose to believe it or not... it stands alone
[2008/09/07 7:41]  Okasan smiles.. and the patterns are there... if we choose to see them
[2008/09/07 7:41]  Okasan: so.. that beginning ..
[2008/09/07 7:42]  Okasan: to me means... I may not be able to put this into words... but intuitively...
[2008/09/07 7:42]  Okasan: I KNOW that I KNOW
[2008/09/07 7:42]  Okasan: comments?
[2008/09/07 7:42]  Veritas Veloce: this will be a interesting journey for us.
[2008/09/07 7:43]  Corwyn Allen raises his hand
[2008/09/07 7:43]  Okasan looks up: hai Allen-san?
[2008/09/07 7:43]  Anisa Nadir is Online
[2008/09/07 7:43]  Corwyn Allen: Would you say that the Tao manifests in a person, or that a person manifests the Tao?
[2008/09/07 7:43]  Okasan: yes
[2008/09/07 7:43]  Corwyn Allen: as a person, not in so much
[2008/09/07 7:44]  Okasan smiles
[2008/09/07 7:44]  Corwyn Allen smiles
[2008/09/07 7:44]  Corwyn Allen: A very Zen answer
[2008/09/07 7:44]  Okasan: first we must become aware
[2008/09/07 7:44]  Okasan: take it in...
[2008/09/07 7:44]  Corwyn Allen: I find the references to Christ interesting in that while he said he was the truth and the way, he did not say he was God.
[2008/09/07 7:44]  Corwyn Allen: Only those who did not understand the Way, said that
[2008/09/07 7:44]  Anisa Nadir is Offline
[2008/09/07 7:45]  Okasan: he said no one comes to the Father but through me
[2008/09/07 7:45]  angel Scarborough smiles softly as she says "From what you have shared so far, I see what you mean about understanding the Tao intuitively."
[2008/09/07 7:45]  Corwyn Allen: It is in human nature to deify things we do not understand
[2008/09/07 7:45]  Okasan: hai... and remember... the Tao was originally written for leaders....this is NOT a religion
[2008/09/07 7:45]  Corwyn Allen nods in agreement
[2008/09/07 7:46]  Corwyn Allen: I am sure there were those who though Lao Tsu was the way, totally missing the point
[2008/09/07 7:46]  Okasan: and my references to Christ...just an aside really... a personal thing... but I thought might be interesting to share
[2008/09/07 7:46]  Mariposa Upshaw is Online
[2008/09/07 7:46]  Chandra Vita nods.
[2008/09/07 7:46]  Okasan: so... as to the verse that says the Tao that can be told is not the eternal Tao
[2008/09/07 7:47]  Okasan: i think that means it is very internal
[2008/09/07 7:47]  Okasan: intuitive
[2008/09/07 7:47]  Okasan: metaphysical and to some spiritual
[2008/09/07 7:47]  Chandra Vita raises her hand.
[2008/09/07 7:47]  Okasan smiles to Chandra... hai?
[2008/09/07 7:48]  Chandra Vita: It is like that words are like the Buddhist metaphor of the Finger that Points to the Moon... watch the finger too closely and you miss the moon.
[2008/09/07 7:48]  Okasan: ohhhh! perfect !
[2008/09/07 7:48]  Okasan: very good!
[2008/09/07 7:48]  Corwyn Allen smiles
[2008/09/07 7:48]  Okasan: this is something... please remember... to take it slow and meditate... really chew on the words
[2008/09/07 7:49]  Okasan: get them clear and think about how they apply to leadership
[2008/09/07 7:49]  Okasan: to you in real life
[2008/09/07 7:49]  Okasan: and to you as geisha
[2008/09/07 7:49]  Okasan: why on earth do you think i would bring this work to our table?
[2008/09/07 7:49]  Corwyn Allen smiles to Trotter-san "and as samurai and hogosha"
[2008/09/07 7:49]  Okasan grins
[2008/09/07 7:49]  Veritas Veloce: internal ..spritual growth...
[2008/09/07 7:49]  Okasan nods
[2008/09/07 7:50]  Okasan: yes
[2008/09/07 7:50]  Okasan: and also...
[2008/09/07 7:50]  Veritas Veloce: helps us be beteer geisha
[2008/09/07 7:50]  Okasan: we are leaders in SecondLife
[2008/09/07 7:50]  Okasan: did you know that?
[2008/09/07 7:50]  Okasan: we bring an alternative here that no one else does
[2008/09/07 7:50]  Okasan: serving in grace and dignity
[2008/09/07 7:51]  Okasan: as leaders...this information will only help us to help others
[2008/09/07 7:51]  IM: Veritas Veloce: thanks for your note..... did you get my reply?
[2008/09/07 7:51]  Okasan: and you will be amazed how such old words...become fresh within you
[2008/09/07 7:51]  Okasan: now.. our time is done